There were two very important outcomes from Tuesday's gubernatorial race in NJ. The first message is that the residents of the state of NJ are sick and tired of higher taxes and corruption and not getting anything back for all the taxes we pay. We sent a clear message that we will not reward failure and if you are not doing your job in working for the people, we will fire you, and fire him we did. I hope that Christie got the message that it is now his time to lower our taxes and restore the state to the people. The frum community, across the state, overwhelmingly voted for Mr. Christie because we believed that on the issue that matters most, school funding and tax credits, he was the better candidate.
The other message that was sent loud and clear from Lakewood NJ is that the idea that Daas Torah is absolute and the argument of "who are we to question the gedolim they know better" is clearly not as iron clad as many in the charedi community would like you to think it is. In fact, I would go so far as to say that this election proves that these people do not truly believe in the concept of absolute Daas Torah or they would have voted overwhelmingly for Corzine and as these results show, Lakewood overwhelmingly voted for Christie and the two districts that Corzine carried are heavily minority. Here are the events as they played out.
Last week the Vaad in Lakewood, with the haskamah of the roshei yeshiva, including Rav Malkiel Kutler, came out and endorsed John Corzine for re-election to Governor. Hearing this many in Lakewood, who felt that Christie was better for the overall community, were up in arms. They felt that Corzine was only better for the Yeshiva not the rest of the town and that the whole town should be looked at not just the yeshiva. Some of the rabbonim whose names were on the letter who were not endorsing Corzine for a variety of reasons including his support for "Toeva" marriage. Sensing some discontent and descent among the ranks Rav Malkiel Kutler put in a call to Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman is EY, to get the ultimate daas torah decision, one which, presumably if you follow absolute daas torah, would get everyone in Lakewood to lineup behind the candidate that Rav Shteinman said to vote for, after all who are we to question the gedolim? Let's not focus on the fact that they are turning to a 90 Year old rosh Yeshiva living in Eretz Yisrael to ask him who to vote for in a local election and they did not provide him will all the facts (like what generally happens with these takanos).
"The shailah explained that one candidate will sign the marriage equality bill, while the other says that he won’t, but the first one - i.e., Corzine - has done favors for the community. Rav Shteinman responded that there is no lifnei iver with respect to a goy, so it is not assur to vote for Corzine, and since he has been helpful to the kehillah in general, members of the community should vote for him."
So to make sure we are all following because one candidate has done "favors for the Yeshiva", regardless of where he stands on the rest of the issues even on Gay Marriage, he should get the support of the Kehila. After this speculation was abound that some of the rabbonim who previously endorsed Cristie were now changing their mind, however the following sign was posted: “There is a letter that says that Rabbonim were consulted who were Maskim that it is Mutar to vote for Corzine. If this is Mashma to you, that either me or Rav Forscheimer or Rav Felder or Rav Lieberman or Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen were consulted - that is not so.”
As far as I know the whole thing came to a head at about 6:30 on Tuesday night. I received the following text from a cousin of mine in Lakewood, "huge demonstrations in Yeshiva [BMG] for and against [Corzine]. It was like Meah Shearim. They had goyim come to join in the picket and campaign for Christie".
So to recap, the vaad endorses Corzine with the support of the Rosh Yeshiva, there is a machlokes and people are upset so they go to THE authority in Lakewood Rav Malkiel Kutler. He does not know what to do so he turns to the world authority of Daas Torah Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman. And even with the haskamah of Daas torah across the board from Lakewood to Israel the people turn against their leaders and vote for Christie.
If these people truly believed what they preached that daas torah is absolute and we have no right to question the gedolim John Corzine should have taken the Lakewood vote by a huge margin, but indeed he lost all the frum areas, including where BMG is located. What does this say for Rabbinic authority? To me it tells me that it is a load of garbage because these people won't even practice what they preach. Even in Englewood New Jersey, an area that is the furthest thing from a bastion of Daas Torah, Rabbi Genack endorsed a candidate and the people overwhelmingly came out to support him. This says to me that the Modern Orthodox community holds Rabbinic authority in much higher terms than do the hypocrites in Lakewood.
The next time you hear the likes of R' Pinkey Lipschutz or Avi Shafran or any of these other guys preaching about how Rabbinic authority is absolute, ask them if this is something they really believe in or are they just using it to try and look frummer than the rest of the community but when push comes to shove they are going to do what they want.
The other message that was sent loud and clear from Lakewood NJ is that the idea that Daas Torah is absolute and the argument of "who are we to question the gedolim they know better" is clearly not as iron clad as many in the charedi community would like you to think it is. In fact, I would go so far as to say that this election proves that these people do not truly believe in the concept of absolute Daas Torah or they would have voted overwhelmingly for Corzine and as these results show, Lakewood overwhelmingly voted for Christie and the two districts that Corzine carried are heavily minority. Here are the events as they played out.
Last week the Vaad in Lakewood, with the haskamah of the roshei yeshiva, including Rav Malkiel Kutler, came out and endorsed John Corzine for re-election to Governor. Hearing this many in Lakewood, who felt that Christie was better for the overall community, were up in arms. They felt that Corzine was only better for the Yeshiva not the rest of the town and that the whole town should be looked at not just the yeshiva. Some of the rabbonim whose names were on the letter who were not endorsing Corzine for a variety of reasons including his support for "Toeva" marriage. Sensing some discontent and descent among the ranks Rav Malkiel Kutler put in a call to Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman is EY, to get the ultimate daas torah decision, one which, presumably if you follow absolute daas torah, would get everyone in Lakewood to lineup behind the candidate that Rav Shteinman said to vote for, after all who are we to question the gedolim? Let's not focus on the fact that they are turning to a 90 Year old rosh Yeshiva living in Eretz Yisrael to ask him who to vote for in a local election and they did not provide him will all the facts (like what generally happens with these takanos).
"The shailah explained that one candidate will sign the marriage equality bill, while the other says that he won’t, but the first one - i.e., Corzine - has done favors for the community. Rav Shteinman responded that there is no lifnei iver with respect to a goy, so it is not assur to vote for Corzine, and since he has been helpful to the kehillah in general, members of the community should vote for him."
So to make sure we are all following because one candidate has done "favors for the Yeshiva", regardless of where he stands on the rest of the issues even on Gay Marriage, he should get the support of the Kehila. After this speculation was abound that some of the rabbonim who previously endorsed Cristie were now changing their mind, however the following sign was posted: “There is a letter that says that Rabbonim were consulted who were Maskim that it is Mutar to vote for Corzine. If this is Mashma to you, that either me or Rav Forscheimer or Rav Felder or Rav Lieberman or Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen were consulted - that is not so.”
As far as I know the whole thing came to a head at about 6:30 on Tuesday night. I received the following text from a cousin of mine in Lakewood, "huge demonstrations in Yeshiva [BMG] for and against [Corzine]. It was like Meah Shearim. They had goyim come to join in the picket and campaign for Christie".
So to recap, the vaad endorses Corzine with the support of the Rosh Yeshiva, there is a machlokes and people are upset so they go to THE authority in Lakewood Rav Malkiel Kutler. He does not know what to do so he turns to the world authority of Daas Torah Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman. And even with the haskamah of Daas torah across the board from Lakewood to Israel the people turn against their leaders and vote for Christie.
If these people truly believed what they preached that daas torah is absolute and we have no right to question the gedolim John Corzine should have taken the Lakewood vote by a huge margin, but indeed he lost all the frum areas, including where BMG is located. What does this say for Rabbinic authority? To me it tells me that it is a load of garbage because these people won't even practice what they preach. Even in Englewood New Jersey, an area that is the furthest thing from a bastion of Daas Torah, Rabbi Genack endorsed a candidate and the people overwhelmingly came out to support him. This says to me that the Modern Orthodox community holds Rabbinic authority in much higher terms than do the hypocrites in Lakewood.
The next time you hear the likes of R' Pinkey Lipschutz or Avi Shafran or any of these other guys preaching about how Rabbinic authority is absolute, ask them if this is something they really believe in or are they just using it to try and look frummer than the rest of the community but when push comes to shove they are going to do what they want.
13 comments:
They brought goyim in the beis medrash.
Is that like when YU had the Cardinals stop by?
An emperor who cares for nothing but his wardrobe hires two weavers who promise him the finest suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is either stupid or unfit for his position. The Emperor cannot see the wondrous cloth himself, but pretends that he can for fear of appearing stupid; his ministers do the same. When the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they dress him in mime and the Emperor then marches in procession before his subjects. Suddenly, a child in the crowd cries out, "The emperor is not wearing any clothes!" The Emperor realizes the truth of the assertion but holds his head high and continues the procession.
It's not an exact fit, but worth thinking about.
KT
Joel Rich
HF- If Daas Torah survived the Holocaust, it will survive Chris Christie.
Rav Dessler will come to the rescue yet again.
Daas Torah has been declining for a long time. I think there are still legitimate Rabbonim out there, the problem is people don't listen to them.
It really went downhill for Chareidim when R' Gifter and R' Miller passed away. As much as I might have disagreed with them on some things (like their stance on YU), I at least respect that they stood up for what they believed in, even when it harmed them. R' Miller was fired as Rabbi of a shul for standing up for his beliefs. That is the definition of Kiddush Hashem. So, even if you disagree with them, respect them for that.
Most of the "Gedolim" now are ruled by politics and money, as evidenced by the election and other issues (such as the Lipa fiasco). R' Gifter and R' Miller would never have approved of these things.
First of all you must distinguish between Eretz Yisroel and America. In EY, the gedolim still have far more daas Torah power than their American counterparts. Remember that in EY the Chareidim are mostly cut off from the real world. They don't read the papers, watch television or have internet so they're far more dependent on their autocratic leadership.
In America, most Chareidim are connected in some way or another to the real world. They do read newspapers and not just Hamodia. They have the internet. They are self-educated about issues. Thus they are more disinclined to have a sheep-like attitude when it comes to matters like this.
Thank you honestly frum for the posting (and all your stuff on FM, matzav and DeiahVeDibur about the TAY fiasco. There are some new postings on all those sites that will interest you.)
I was genuinely intrigued by the comments about the issue from lakewooders on matzav.com. No one is saying dass torah is bunko, just the leaders were misled, or the lakewood hanhallah is more interested in their 20 million than in the needs of the bigger community. I smell some real conflict coming up. Of course the rabbonim are buffered and if they have to they will throw askanim under the bus. But I predict that the rabbinical tyranny will be crumbling, at least in lakewood.
PS anyone know if the lakewood stocking ban is for real and whther the 60 rabbonim's letter to shadchan's is real (it is a story in the NY Post titled, dreidel robbers)
Yerachmiel Lopin, FrumFollies.wordpress.com
According to campaign contribution filings, BMG CEO Aaron Kotler gave ~$18K to various dem election campaigns over the last year. who else in lakewood is doing that. Is his salary large enough for that. Is there a group in LW that has personal or business benefits that drive the whole dem identification?
the need for entitlements?
i had the same conclusions, you beat me to it. nice post.
i think the only thing you failed to recognize is that the american version of daas torah died, but the israeli more fundamentalist version is just beginning. in the israeli version, you find a rabbi to support your view, take it to the extreme, and no one controls you. in america, there was always allowed some sort of grumbling within the ranks, even if you went along.
also the fact that they asked r' steinman in israel speaks volumes as to the leadership in lakewood, and to the israeli chareidi fundamentalism they are bringing to our shores. keep a watch out in the years to come for this trend.
the sheer chutzpah and azzis esplayed by the greater community from the yungerleit in lakewood to the mo's in teaneck prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this spoiled generation has no kavod habonim whatsoever. daas torah BH isnt dead. KAVOD is dead. Even if you disagree, even if you vehemently oppose, the many people behaved is not only anti torah, its anti american. the cursing and nival peh, the chutzah and the evil disgusting things people have said is truly baffling.
Disagree all you want, but watch your tounges. People seriously. the things posted on the blogs and heard in the streets from the most yeshivishe to the most modernish was absolutely DISGUSTING. shame shame shame busha shae on all of you. sickening.
Anon, you can blame it on we evil bloggers and blogs and the internet or whoever the boogey man of the day is but at the end of the day the people did not listen to daas torah on this, not only did they not listen they went against not only Rav Malkiel, but even Rav Shteinman. The hypocrisy is stunning. Kavod might indeed be dead in certain areas because the people DEMANDING it are not worth being mechabed. I always love seeing people read the blogs then rant about how evil they are. If you think blogs are that bad don't read them.
"Even in Englewood New Jersey, an area that is the furthest thing from a bastion of Daas Torah, Rabbi Genack endorsed a candidate and the people overwhelmingly came out to support him. This says to me that the Modern Orthodox community holds Rabbinic authority in much higher terms than do the hypocrites in Lakewood."
Also, it's cloudy this morning and I'm wearing brown shoes. This says to me that whenever I wear brown shoes, it will be cloudy.
You are overlooking the Teaneck and Englewood results. Both voted about 3 to 1 in favor of Corzine. In Englewood, they followed Rabbi Genack... In Teaneck, they followed liberal policies that have made NJ (and even more so, Northern NJ) extremely expensive.
While Christie promised to be better to our yeshiva situation, liberalism among Jews in NJ won the day in northern NJ.
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