Over the weekend I received a lot of feedback on my previous two posts. As always, some people agreed wit me and others did not, some took issues with certain institutions that were mentioned in both the body of the post as well as the comment section and I heard a lot of agreement on my assessment of the current status of MTA as a school which is right of center, given their current "crop" of rebbeim.
One person I was speaking with told me that where he agrees with many of the ideas that Rabbi Berman and the others wrote about in their articles he feels that one thing that differentiates the Modern Orthodox community is that we tend to be more pluralistic and open minded, and these are things we should incorporate into our kids chinuch. He suggested, as did the last person to comment on the first post, that there is really nothing wrong with these rebbeim teaching in our schools and we need to just keep tabs on what they are telling our kids and it is better for us to expose our kids charedi mechanchim and that type of environment rather than a "Modern Orthodox light" (it seems I am going to have to do a post where I try and break down my labels although I am a bit hesitant at the risk of ostracizing or insulting close friends of mine. Would you want to be labeled as “charedi light”? ).
I agree with some of the premise that we need to be more pluralistic and open minded, but that would only be in a perfect world where the charedi rebbeim we are bringing in are also pluralistic and open minded, but so long as they see it as their job to "influence" and be "mekarev" our kids the system simply will not work. I was speaking to someone who is a mechanech at one of the more Right Wing boys summer camps, that for cost purposes more and more Modern Orthodox parents are sending their kids to. And he told me that he sees it from the rebbeim there, that they are not simply trying to teach our kids but they see it as their mission to be "mekarev" them to charedi hashkafos. I think that one thing all sides of the spectrum of Modern Orthodoxy agree on is our dedication to religious Zionism. Whether you are all the way on the right or on the left or in the middle the one binding factor that brings us all together is our dedication to and belief in Medinat Yisrael, a Jewish state as our homeland and the ideas of religious Zionism as spelled out by our leaders such as the Rav, Rav Kook and others. In my opinion, this should be a litmus test for the rebbeim we are bringing into our yeshivos. If the school chooses to hire more right wing rebbeim it's fine so long as they can instill in our kids OUR VALUES.
Are the rebbeim speaking to the kids about the chashivus of MEDINAT Yisrael (not Eretz Yisrael, they are two different things) and the importance of having a Jewish homeland? Do they speak to them about Rav Kook, The Rav and Rav Aaron Lichtenstein? I can guarantee you that every five year old in a charedi school knows what Rav Elyashiv and Rav Chaim Kanievsky look like. Will the average kid graduating from a more right wing of the Modern Orthodox day schools know what the Rav or Rav Kook looked like? Are their pictures proudly displayed in our schools are "our gedolim"? Do these rebbeim even believe in the concepts of the Medina and religious Zionism. If the answer the simple question of do you believe in Medinat Yisrael, is no, or there is some hesitation or rational, these people should not be teaching in our yeshivos. You want o be pluralistic and open minded and teach my kid about gedolim, fine, but lets make sure they know about the leaders of our community and our gedolim as well, let’s have their pictures hanging on the walls of our kid’s class rooms..
The rabbonim in the community should feel comfortable sending their kids to the yeshivos that your kids attend. Our Roshei Yeshiva should feel comfortable learning in our yeshivos batei midrashim and going to Merkaz HaRav when they go to Eretz Yisrael rather than the Mir. We need to create an environment where we are accepting and tolerant but only up to a point. We need to draw a line in the sand and say if you believe in what we believe in and will teach it to our kids, great, but if not you have no place teaching in our yeshivos. This should apply across the board. For instance the Rebbeim mentioned in the previous post's comment section, do they believe in the Medina? Will they teach our kids about it? Or do they believe in a life of "only torah"? Will they teach our kids about kedushas hachomer and how even their secular studies can be a way to achieve spirituality? Or are they ignoring having those uncomfortable things and bash concepts like Torah Umadah when given the opportunity? Please come teach our children, but on our terms.
One person I was speaking with told me that where he agrees with many of the ideas that Rabbi Berman and the others wrote about in their articles he feels that one thing that differentiates the Modern Orthodox community is that we tend to be more pluralistic and open minded, and these are things we should incorporate into our kids chinuch. He suggested, as did the last person to comment on the first post, that there is really nothing wrong with these rebbeim teaching in our schools and we need to just keep tabs on what they are telling our kids and it is better for us to expose our kids charedi mechanchim and that type of environment rather than a "Modern Orthodox light" (it seems I am going to have to do a post where I try and break down my labels although I am a bit hesitant at the risk of ostracizing or insulting close friends of mine. Would you want to be labeled as “charedi light”? ).
I agree with some of the premise that we need to be more pluralistic and open minded, but that would only be in a perfect world where the charedi rebbeim we are bringing in are also pluralistic and open minded, but so long as they see it as their job to "influence" and be "mekarev" our kids the system simply will not work. I was speaking to someone who is a mechanech at one of the more Right Wing boys summer camps, that for cost purposes more and more Modern Orthodox parents are sending their kids to. And he told me that he sees it from the rebbeim there, that they are not simply trying to teach our kids but they see it as their mission to be "mekarev" them to charedi hashkafos. I think that one thing all sides of the spectrum of Modern Orthodoxy agree on is our dedication to religious Zionism. Whether you are all the way on the right or on the left or in the middle the one binding factor that brings us all together is our dedication to and belief in Medinat Yisrael, a Jewish state as our homeland and the ideas of religious Zionism as spelled out by our leaders such as the Rav, Rav Kook and others. In my opinion, this should be a litmus test for the rebbeim we are bringing into our yeshivos. If the school chooses to hire more right wing rebbeim it's fine so long as they can instill in our kids OUR VALUES.
Are the rebbeim speaking to the kids about the chashivus of MEDINAT Yisrael (not Eretz Yisrael, they are two different things) and the importance of having a Jewish homeland? Do they speak to them about Rav Kook, The Rav and Rav Aaron Lichtenstein? I can guarantee you that every five year old in a charedi school knows what Rav Elyashiv and Rav Chaim Kanievsky look like. Will the average kid graduating from a more right wing of the Modern Orthodox day schools know what the Rav or Rav Kook looked like? Are their pictures proudly displayed in our schools are "our gedolim"? Do these rebbeim even believe in the concepts of the Medina and religious Zionism. If the answer the simple question of do you believe in Medinat Yisrael, is no, or there is some hesitation or rational, these people should not be teaching in our yeshivos. You want o be pluralistic and open minded and teach my kid about gedolim, fine, but lets make sure they know about the leaders of our community and our gedolim as well, let’s have their pictures hanging on the walls of our kid’s class rooms..
The rabbonim in the community should feel comfortable sending their kids to the yeshivos that your kids attend. Our Roshei Yeshiva should feel comfortable learning in our yeshivos batei midrashim and going to Merkaz HaRav when they go to Eretz Yisrael rather than the Mir. We need to create an environment where we are accepting and tolerant but only up to a point. We need to draw a line in the sand and say if you believe in what we believe in and will teach it to our kids, great, but if not you have no place teaching in our yeshivos. This should apply across the board. For instance the Rebbeim mentioned in the previous post's comment section, do they believe in the Medina? Will they teach our kids about it? Or do they believe in a life of "only torah"? Will they teach our kids about kedushas hachomer and how even their secular studies can be a way to achieve spirituality? Or are they ignoring having those uncomfortable things and bash concepts like Torah Umadah when given the opportunity? Please come teach our children, but on our terms.
12 comments:
1. IMVHO close to none, if not all, of the rabbbeim at that camp would allow their children to attend it - too modernishe an influence
2.What % of MTA/YU RY send their kids to MO?
3."Please come teach our children, but on our terms. " From my years on a MO BOE I can tell you - "not happening" - some due to the kiruv motivation but most because it takes a skillful chameleon (like a consultant) to project a persona that is not their true one. Even if they talk about the Rav, it comes out hollow.
KT
Joel Rich
Joel, I'll work backwards: :
#3, that is my point, in that case we should not be letting them into our schools to begin with.
#2, I just had an e-mail exchaneg with a friend of mine about this. Many of them, including Rabbi Willig, Rabbi Twersky, Rabbi Rosensweig, Rabbi Neuberger send their kids to YU. I think at this point more who have kids of collage age chose to send heir kids than do not. I know that only one of Rav Schachter's kids went to YU, he sent the others to Baltimore.
#1, are our kids really that bad an influence?
As a classroom teacher (was), I always said that a teacher basically is teaching 'themselves' when they teach Torah. Sure, we can talk 'about' other perspectives; but we can't really teach it. We can only teach what we know and believe and practice. That is one of the differences between Torah and other academic subjects. In that sense, a talmid hacham owns Torah.
And now it gets a little more complex. For the most part, we do not believe that Torah is monolithic. Exposing our students to ONLY a particular approach in learning and perspective is falsifying. Or. OTOH, maybe it is carrying out Aseh Lecha Rav; and they can get exposed to other perspectives when they get older?
It isn't a simple issue. We don't invalidate, necessarily, a more Hareidi perspecitve; we DISAGREE with it on its merits. But we recognize it as a truthful attempt at implementing and learning Torah.
How do we teach this to our students? By excluding that exposure completely we may not give the correct message, either.
The answer may vary for each community, for that matter. But I doubt it is a simple matter of 'keep them out of our schools/yeshivot.'
Moral values are instilled at home... At school I want the person who will be able to convey the most Torah to my kids and give over a love of learning. Leave hashkafa up to me.
great post let us tour noam, ynj, yavneh all the same few pictures of rav kook, rav herzog whos that rav, ras ral and even rav shachter enough is enough parents speak up
can dorah golding do they say the tiflah for the medinah how about the idf? i do not think so? rz in america is a joke
email hagler, knapp, kaminsky where our our gedolim how come my child does not know who rav kook, rav herzog is?
In my home we have the same gedolim pictures that my children see in school (The Chofetz Chaim, Rav Kook,etc)
I want my children to get the same message both in and out of school.
Why do we sell ourselves short?
Why are Charedi gedolim more "gadol", mcharedi hechsherim more kosher, etc?
If we would believe strongly in ourselves it will trickle down to our kids.
We seem to be putting a lot of enphasis on gedolim pictures. I think more of a focus needs to be put on the gedolim our children see at home every day, and how we act. We put a big emphasis on the tefillah for the medinah, but less of a focus on middos, learning, minyan, etc.
Gedolim,
How right you are! We are our own worst enemy.
We decry the extremism of the right and then purchase only "badatz" kosher.
We criticize how they don't work and then pour our money into the "charedi" tzedakot.
We should work to strengthen our mosdot and show our children our pride in our hashkafa!
I agree. We need to teach midos and our hashkafos to our children at home, we also need to teach them about "our gedolim" at home as well. Last night my 4 year old son was looking at my blog (I start them young) and he saw the picture of the Rav and Said "Hey his picture is up on the wall", but I bet he would not be able to say that in his school. We need to teach our kids at home but what we are teaching them needs to be reinforced in the school.
Oh, please. Merkaz HaRav is just as chareidi as any of the other chareidi yeshivot in Israel, and in many ways it is much more so (heavier emphasis on tznius amongst its female adherents). There is a reason that Char is the first part of Chardal.
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