I have spent many posts writing about the current state and future of Modern Orthodox education and the issues that our community faces. My friend the Askan was kind enough to give me a copy of the latest Meorot Journal that was put out by Chovevei Torah (you can download it in PDF from their website) and the topic of the journal is: "Symposium: On Modern Orthodox Day School Education". I have read a number of the articles and I hope to spend this week posting on topics that were mentioned in them. The best article I have read to day on Modern Orthodox education appears in this journal. It is an article by Rivkah Kahan, the future principal of Ma'ayanot High School; I hope to get to is later on this week.
I will start with the opening article which was written by Rabbi Scot Berman, who put together the symposium, he is currently the Head Master of B'nei Akiva schools in Toronto. He makes many of the points that I have written about here in the past. He says that the major issue facing Modern Orthodox education is a lack of good teachers and rebbeim (see my previous posts here and here). The best and brightest of our crop, for the most part, become Drs, Lawyers and hedge fund managers because those professions pay and chinuch, unfortunately does not. There are exceptions to this however but I think there is an issue to contend with. The best and brightest in the Modern Orthodox community that choose to go into chinuch often get jobs at the schools that will pay better (for example Frisch or RAMAZ) and most of us in the centrist Modern Orthodox camp would not send our children to those schools. So the issue for us in the centrist camp is, in my opinion, even worse than those who might find themselves to the left of center. I also think that this is an uphill battle that many of our yeshivos face.
I will start with the opening article which was written by Rabbi Scot Berman, who put together the symposium, he is currently the Head Master of B'nei Akiva schools in Toronto. He makes many of the points that I have written about here in the past. He says that the major issue facing Modern Orthodox education is a lack of good teachers and rebbeim (see my previous posts here and here). The best and brightest of our crop, for the most part, become Drs, Lawyers and hedge fund managers because those professions pay and chinuch, unfortunately does not. There are exceptions to this however but I think there is an issue to contend with. The best and brightest in the Modern Orthodox community that choose to go into chinuch often get jobs at the schools that will pay better (for example Frisch or RAMAZ) and most of us in the centrist Modern Orthodox camp would not send our children to those schools. So the issue for us in the centrist camp is, in my opinion, even worse than those who might find themselves to the left of center. I also think that this is an uphill battle that many of our yeshivos face.
(Disclaimer: the following statement is only being used as an example and I know does not apply to everyone, please do not take offense to it as I am stereotyping to make my point) Take for example the community in which I live. There are, for better or worse, two or three main elementary schools that people send their kids to (for now I will only focus on two). One of them is know to hire rebbeim that are charedim and that is, for the most part, the kind of education your kids are going to get in the older grades. The other is known to be a more Centrist school, however it faces the following problem. Given that it is "labeled" as being the more Modern of the two schools, they have a very broad mix of parents. On the one hand, they have a large group of parents who take halachik observance very seriously and who are ideologically Modern Orthodox. On the other hand, the school also attracts many parents that I would call "MO lite" and they do not take torah observence so seriously. There is a difference in the parent bodies of the two schools and the choice that many of us are left to make is, would we rather our kids get a bit of a charedi education or do we want our kids exposed to certain things which we would rather they not be exposed to. I do not think it would be possible to put together the perfect school where all of the people (parents and faculty) are like minded and there are always going to be elements I do not like. The question is, if I am asked to compromise which direction do I want to go, to the left or the right, it is a very difficult call.
Rabbi Berman continues the article by saying that Modern Orthodox institutions need to know who they are bringing on board, from to administrators to English faculty, and the only way our kids are going to learn our values is if all of the people are like minded. "It behooves school boards to insist that their heads of school and administrators are ideologically aligned with the schools philosophy...Without such personal commitment on the part of the professional leadership, there is little chance that the school program will promote Modern Orthodoxy". He goes on: "The professional leadership must ensure that members of its faculty are individuals who meet ideological criteria set by the school...Probably the most important decision and administrator makes throughout the course of his or her career are whom (s)he decides to hire. With a cadre of Modern Orthodox individuals on staff, the faculty is able to advance a consistent message".
This last point cannot be over estimated. The people who are getting in front of our children day in and day our must be of like minded hashkafah or our kids are going to be confused. I went to what was billed as a Modern Orthodox elementary school in Flatbush, Mizrachi. I believe the one place that this yeshiva failed was in the rebbeim they had teaching us. With very few exceptions (I can think of 2 or 3, one of whom passed away last year the other currently lives in Israel), most of the limudei kodesh faculty in the upper grades were charedim they. The Yeshiva has sold out and renamed itself something with Torah to get more "local" kids but I believe the turning point that brought the place down was when they went out and hired this charedi to be the new principal. This guy was fired a few months in and he did not have a clue about who we were and what we stood for (I don't think many people on the board knew that either), but these were mistakes that were made and should not be repeated again for another generation. We need to get "our people" in front of our kids. And although this is an uphill battle it is something that is paramount to their and our success and the success of the Modern Orthodox movement. Serious parents and rebbeim need to get together to figure out how we can hire and keep rebbeim in our schools who are not charedim and who see eye to eye with our values which leads me to Rabbi Berman's last point.
He says that many people think that it is important for their children to get a well rounded Jewish education "that mirrors the general makeup of the Orthodox community, thereby exposing students to a plurality of views and voices. We, therefore, should intentionally hire haredi teachers to offer alternative models and provide balance within the staff". Although he agrees that hypothetically it is a good idea "...the value of plurality of opinion does not require that we dilute the fundamental message of our education. Therefore, it is important that primary role models our students interact with within the school on a day to day basis be individuals who embrace the very values of the school". He says that exposure to charedi individuals and their thought can be accomplished by inviting them in as guest lecturers from time to time and going to visit them on field trips.
He ends off the article with the following "Prior to any discussion about the ideal graduate, curriculum informal educational experiences, Israel education, the "post high school Israel gap year, issues of gender sexuality or pluralism comes the question of personnel. Whom are we charging with the primary responsibility of educating our children? Who are we placing in front of those children? Who are our children's most significant role models? If we cannot be confident that our teachers are in sync with our fundamental religious philosophy, then the best we conceived and finest developed curriculum is for naught. If we insist, on the other hand, that the educators we set before our students are ideologically committed individuals consistent with the core values of Modern Orthodoxy we will then, and only then, be in a position to begin addressing issues of the content and the substance of that education".
This last point is critical. Although we try to be role models for our children and instill within them our hashkafot and values they must be emphasized and reemphasized at school. Whether we like it or not for most of us the school and what they are learning will have more of an affect on them than anything we try to teach them. We must ensure that the rebbeim, administrators and faculty that we are bringing into our schools and the people that we are exposing our children to on a regular basis be of like mind.
Rabbi Berman continues the article by saying that Modern Orthodox institutions need to know who they are bringing on board, from to administrators to English faculty, and the only way our kids are going to learn our values is if all of the people are like minded. "It behooves school boards to insist that their heads of school and administrators are ideologically aligned with the schools philosophy...Without such personal commitment on the part of the professional leadership, there is little chance that the school program will promote Modern Orthodoxy". He goes on: "The professional leadership must ensure that members of its faculty are individuals who meet ideological criteria set by the school...Probably the most important decision and administrator makes throughout the course of his or her career are whom (s)he decides to hire. With a cadre of Modern Orthodox individuals on staff, the faculty is able to advance a consistent message".
This last point cannot be over estimated. The people who are getting in front of our children day in and day our must be of like minded hashkafah or our kids are going to be confused. I went to what was billed as a Modern Orthodox elementary school in Flatbush, Mizrachi. I believe the one place that this yeshiva failed was in the rebbeim they had teaching us. With very few exceptions (I can think of 2 or 3, one of whom passed away last year the other currently lives in Israel), most of the limudei kodesh faculty in the upper grades were charedim they. The Yeshiva has sold out and renamed itself something with Torah to get more "local" kids but I believe the turning point that brought the place down was when they went out and hired this charedi to be the new principal. This guy was fired a few months in and he did not have a clue about who we were and what we stood for (I don't think many people on the board knew that either), but these were mistakes that were made and should not be repeated again for another generation. We need to get "our people" in front of our kids. And although this is an uphill battle it is something that is paramount to their and our success and the success of the Modern Orthodox movement. Serious parents and rebbeim need to get together to figure out how we can hire and keep rebbeim in our schools who are not charedim and who see eye to eye with our values which leads me to Rabbi Berman's last point.
He says that many people think that it is important for their children to get a well rounded Jewish education "that mirrors the general makeup of the Orthodox community, thereby exposing students to a plurality of views and voices. We, therefore, should intentionally hire haredi teachers to offer alternative models and provide balance within the staff". Although he agrees that hypothetically it is a good idea "...the value of plurality of opinion does not require that we dilute the fundamental message of our education. Therefore, it is important that primary role models our students interact with within the school on a day to day basis be individuals who embrace the very values of the school". He says that exposure to charedi individuals and their thought can be accomplished by inviting them in as guest lecturers from time to time and going to visit them on field trips.
He ends off the article with the following "Prior to any discussion about the ideal graduate, curriculum informal educational experiences, Israel education, the "post high school Israel gap year, issues of gender sexuality or pluralism comes the question of personnel. Whom are we charging with the primary responsibility of educating our children? Who are we placing in front of those children? Who are our children's most significant role models? If we cannot be confident that our teachers are in sync with our fundamental religious philosophy, then the best we conceived and finest developed curriculum is for naught. If we insist, on the other hand, that the educators we set before our students are ideologically committed individuals consistent with the core values of Modern Orthodoxy we will then, and only then, be in a position to begin addressing issues of the content and the substance of that education".
This last point is critical. Although we try to be role models for our children and instill within them our hashkafot and values they must be emphasized and reemphasized at school. Whether we like it or not for most of us the school and what they are learning will have more of an affect on them than anything we try to teach them. We must ensure that the rebbeim, administrators and faculty that we are bringing into our schools and the people that we are exposing our children to on a regular basis be of like mind.
30 comments:
great post switched from ynj to noam too many rw cahredi rebbim in ynj and they do not care to fix it
Supply and demand would indicate that MO rabbeim would be more expensive. Are the parents willing to pay?
KT
Joel Rich
I have written extensively about this.
The biggest problem with developing a Modern Orthodox curriculum is the lack of definition of Modern Orthodoxy.
Is it Rav Herschel Schachter and the Chareidi-lite crowd? Or is it Rabbi Avi Weiss and the YCT gang? Is it Torah with some secular on the side, or Torah and secular with equal importance?
When you can give definitive answers to these questions you will have made much progress towards your goal.
ynj rebbiem are not rhs students most are non-zionists he is a zionist i wish most mo schools had his students as rebbein insread of ni/cc type yh is a day of mourning for them but mo's do not care
Garnel, I agree that we need to define our "thing", but I reccomned you read Rivka Kahan's article, I am goignt o post about it at some point this week, it begins to break it down.
HF & Garnel:
see these two posts and the comments on them:
http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2009/10/who-are-people-in-your-modern-orthodox.html
http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2006/11/you-might-be-modern-orthodox-if_13.html
i should note i disagree with his conclusion or his bottom line note, but that aside its not bad...
I would have to say that Gil and I practice two different forms of Modern Orthodoxy. I, for instance do not regard Rabbi Schachter or Rabbi Willig as being Modern Orthodox but rather Charedi lite. I would take my kids to see them to show them aspects of charedi Judaism.
HF - i disagree.
Law,you are entitled to disagree but look at the people Rav Schachter and Rabbi Willig are producing, nearly all of them are part of the "YU Yeshivish" Charedi Lite crowd. And look, by cotrast to theose Rav Lichtenstein and Rav Rozensweig (Rabi Weider as well) are producing. They are more in touch with true centrism. It's all a matter of what you are looking for. Charedi lite might work for you but not for me. Just look at the rebbeim in MTA, the newer ones (newer from when I was there) you have Baruch Pesach Mendelsohn who is a hard core full blown charedi (and he is the reason that I will most likely not be sending my kids to MTA), Rabbi Tani Cohen, Yehuda WIllig. THese guys (except for Mendehlsohn) are all YU Yeshivish which to me is more of a danger than regular charedim because these guy try too hard.
FYI:
"halachik" (sic) is spelled either "Halachic" or "Halakhic.
The word is English.
HF - You said "THese guys (except for Mendehlsohn) are all YU Yeshivish which to me is more of a danger than regular charedim because these guy try too hard."
What do you mean by try too hard?
Great Post. I have a few thoughts.
1. When deciding wher to send our children to yeshiva, muy wife made plenty of these points. Baruch Hashem we chose to send our children to Yeshivat Noam and we are very happy.
2. You are absolutely correct about MTA. I am a proud alumni. However, most of my Rabbeim were not Modern Orthodox. I feel that the Rabbeim unfortunately have only gone more to the right. I feel that MTA needs to fix this, but will not. I will therefore unfortunantely, likely not send my son there.
3. I am a Talmid of both Rav Shechter and Rav Willig. While I have tremendous respect for them. I do not know if they are Modern Orthodaox. But both respect secular education. If we start labeling These Rabbanim as Chareidi, and they are Talmidim of the Rav, then who do we have in our camp. Is it only GUSH. I am quite concerned about issues like this.
Binyamin
What is the community's view of Yavneh -- hashkafa, rabbeim, parent body, etc.?
it bothers me that when people split off into factions, they become zealous for their own, and miss the point entirely of being good, honest, G-d fearing, kind jews.
Anon, they are trying to please their yeshivish and charedi counterparts while being apologists for Modern Orthodoxy. They tell the kids things like, "you are not modern Orthodox" and they lump all of MO into one group and view us all as left wing non halachic types, I know because I had some of these types of rebbeim in MTA. What MTA fails to realize is that they are marginalizing an entire group of people, like myself and others, who see ourselves as being middle of the road Centrist Modern Orthodox lishmah and we will not send our children to MTA because we fear our children will be indoctrinated by these people. Like I said I had all of these types of rebbeim in High School and I do not need my kids hearing the types of hashkafah that these rebbeim will try and instill in them, because regardless of what we teach and show them at home what they will learn in school will have a huge influence on them. They should take a lesson from TABC and see the types of Rebbeim and mechanchim they have there.
HF, Please consider the following:
I grew up in a MO community, went to an MO elementary school and high school. Afterwards I learned for a year in a Hesder Yeshiva. Virtually all of my Rebbeim during all of those years were MO - and most were the real McCoy, not "Chareidi Light".
I admired and respected my MO Rebbeim and I learned a lot from them. (I will add that I learned a lot from my MO parents and grandparents and many members of the community as well.) When I returned home from Israel after all of these years of MO education I had to decide how to live a life that best integrated all of these ideals. At that time, I began to become Chareidi. I decided that living as a part of a Chareidi community would give me the best chance of fully living all of the values that my MO mentors had taught me and the best way to pass these values on to my children.
Based on what has transpired in my life in the almost twenty years since that decision was made, I believe I made a good choice. I cannot say for certain that I made the best choice. There is no way to know. Also, things have changed in the MO community since then, and I have not been close enough to fully observe these changes. I now live in Eretz Yisrael and my original decisions were made with a life in America in mind. I am relating this story to make two points:
1) The choice that I made was the same choice made by many of my peers who became Chareidi. We did not abandon Modern Orthodoxy for lack of excellent MO role models, or even because the Chareidi role models were superior to the MO ones. We did it because we felt that the Chareidi community was living a more consistent and full Torah lifestyle than the MO community. The point is not nessarily whether or not this is true, but this is how we felt. It is not enough to have excellent MO schools that are staffed by excellent MO Rebbeim. There have to be MO communities that are dedicated to living lives and building families that are dedicated to fully implementing all aspects of the MO values. It could be that these community structures exist, but it did not seem that way to me 20 years ago.
2) A school has to decide what values it wants to impart and look for teachers who will give over those values. There is a wide range of Haskafos in the Jewish world. It should not be assumed that because a particular Rebbe dresses in a certain way or belongs to a certain community that he would teach values that go against the direction of the school. I believe that you are right that there is much to be gained by having strong MO role models for the MO students and all efforts should be made to bring more MO talent into MO Chinuch. But there is nothing to be feared from a few Chareidi Rebbeim who share most of your values and respect those MO values that they do not fully agree with. I assure you that there are many.
While I am no longer a member of the MO community, I have a great deal of Hakaras HaTov and respect for Modern Orthodoxy. I think that if the MO world is able to strengthen its own system of Chinuch and build communities that allow its members to live lives fully dedicated to its ideals, the whole Jewish world will benefit.
Anon, I do not know enough about the parents or students of Yavneh to comment but I do hold both Rabbi Knapp and Rabbi Penn in very high regard. I am not sure why but from what I can see, for the most part, most parents in my immediate area do not send their kids there. From what I hear it is in the middle between the other 2 schools afore mentioned Perhaps being closer to Noam.
Moshe Dovid, I will say this to you. I am sure that for you it was the right choice when you made it but the Modern Orthodoxy of twenty years ago is much different in many aspects to the Centrist Modern Orthodoxy of today. Twenty years ago, unfortunately, many viewed it as sort of the easy way out whereas now we have communities and institutions set up to nurture our children and the rest of the community in these hashkafos that we hold so dear to us, we just need to take these institutions and use them to foster growth because I do not want my kids thinking that the only choice they are going to have if they want to live a fulfilling life in our community is going the charedi route.
HF- Your statement dividing the students of the various YU Roshei Yeshiva and contrasting them is oversimplified. The fact is that R. Schachter and Willig have produced some Talmidim who are ideologically MO, although I grant you that they do not neccesarily identify with those talmidim, while R. Rosensweig over the last several years has moved, and taken his talmidim, increasingy to the right.
Here's something to think about:
I think the MO community needs to move away from this chareidi- inspired need for gedolim to justify our existence. When we are asked which Gadol is MO? Ther answer should be: who cares? The Mesorah of MO, that we have from the Rav, is that we are permitted to think for ourselves. That means we are even allowed to think things that the Rav himself did not think [these words are heretical in today's YU]. Our mesorah should not consist of parroting what the Rav said, and cleaving to his talmidim [which talmidim anyway? Wurzburger? Ilson? Hartman? Shurkin?]. It consists of the fundamental teaching that we are capable of making descisions for ourselves without resorting to a cult-like Daas Torah. Ironically, our Daas Torah is that we don't need it.
But I must qualify: It's not that we don't need Daas Torah, we just don't believe that the only repository of Daas Torah is a cadre of Roshei Yeshiva, whether Chareidi or YU, whether in Israel or the US.
We have Rabbis and teachers because we need guidance from people who are steeped in Torah knowledge, whose understanding of Halakha and Hashkafa allows them to speak with authority. But we should not, we cannot disqualify an opinion because it is at odds with that of a Rosh Yeshiva.
Let's just say this: It is not a coincidence that the most left-wing figure in the YU Beis Medrash, Rabbi Blau, is also the one with the most knowledge of and connection to actualy communititesa dn their struggles. Sadly he is also the only one who doesnt believe that he deserves, by virtue os his poistion and scholarship, to wield hegemonic control over the Jewish community.
I think it is important to distinguish between Chareidi "look" and Chareidi "hashkafah." I agree that we are seeking more and more leaders of our community with the Chareidi "look" or "sound." I believe that there are three dividing lines (outside Religious Zionism, of course). The first is respect for secular studies. I think that even those who you call "chareidi lite" recognize the importance of secular studies. The second is the view relating to kollel. Those who are truly MO (including the MO "gedolim") are not in favor of kollel for the masses. A very small number of people, the best of the best, are in kollel. Everyone else is either out of the yeshiva or in chinuch. I see these two as the dividing lines. The third is acceptance of alternative viewpoints. While the acceptance can in some people's minds be broader, I think that other views are respected to a much greater degree than in the Chareidi community.
These are the principles I want inculcated in my children. Much of the time, I don't think that Chareidi rabbeim express anything to the contrary. It's more about a "look" and a manner of speaking than true hashkafah.
As someone who grew up in a Chareidi community and moved to a "MO" community - and who was never into externals, I am somewhat put off by the tendencies of certain YU roshei yeshiva to emulate certain manners of Chareidi/Yeshivish appearance, speech and "dumbed down" hashkafa.
I still think that there is enough of a gap that having Chareidi teachers is not that big of an issue.
i really dont understand all these definitions and distinctions. you either hold that torah umadda is good, or you reject it.
thats all.
is there really any other thing that makes "MO" or "Chareidi" labels differ?
great post i went to mta will not send my children there only to tabc i emailed the principal about all the anti rz stuff in the school rav mendelsohn shul no tefliah for th idf or medinah rabbi schiler the mashgiach an avid anti rz rav bechloferetc yu/mta is finished e-mail the principal they even had rav shiller talking at a yh celebration how sick is that check out what he had to say when you get older you can choose your own derech can i say that in new sqaure or chaim berlin
We actually have a similar situation in our Chareidi school in Israel. The school is Litvish but Litvish Cheder Rebbeim are not so easy to find. So most of the Rebbeim in the Cheder are Chasidish. Could be that to you MO guys all of us Chareidim look the same :-), but Chasidim dress differently than we do and have different Halachic Chumras and Kulas and emphasize different values than we do. Their whole culture is different.
Lechatchila, it would be best to have more Litvish Rebbeim in the Cheder. But the B'Dieved is not bad at all.
The Rebbeim know that they are teaching in a Litvish school. They know that they have to teach the Litvish curriculum. They would not dare to say anything against the Litvish customs or the Litvish educational system. The students gain from having a little bit of exposure to the Chasidishe culture and ideas without compromising their Litvish education. And the school gains by having a larger pool of excellent educators to choose from.
The problem with a MO school hiring Chareidi teachers will only arise if by doing so they are saying, "We are not exactly sure what our values are. By bringing you in, we are giving you an opportunity to influence our values."
If a MO school is very clear about what kind of education and value system they want to impart, they should have no problem hiring some Chareidi teachers. If teachers agree to teach in the school, then they know that they have to teach within the guidelines of the school. If they can't do that, then they can't stay. A little bit of exposure to Chareidi educators under those conditions would not compromise a MO education in any way.
Some of these post are hard to read with the obsession on labels! Instead of trying to find teachers that fit labels that no one knows what they mean, define the major ideological issues and find teachers compatible with that.
Kisarita, it is one in the same. See my upcoming post (should be up later today). We, unfortunately, use the lables as a litmus test to see if these people are the types we want influencing our kids.
why do we not teach our kids that the mash is rav blau not the one from bmg? why
As a proud resident of Bergenfield, I think that our community truly emulates MO. While it seems to you that this is no more than chareidi lite, I dont think that we are expecting the ffb chareidim to think of us as equal, nor do we strive for that. The residents of my communtiy truly espouse MO in the sense that we value secualr education and beleive in the State of Israel. Nonetheless, the problem with MO is that the majority of Mo people are either Chareidi lite or very Mo - with all of the compromises that that lifestyle entails. One reason that I would never send my children to a school like Noam, Moriah or Yavneh is that so many of the families of those school are so MO that halacha takes a back seat. It is truly rare to have one who can sustain a MO hashkafa and still remain committed to halacha. Individuals like Rabbis Bednarsh and Hain are yechidei segula that they walk the tightrope that modern orthodoxy in its pureset state calls for. It is for that reason that the masses choose between chareidi lite and mo maikil. A school like Noam for example, with its true to form MO hashkafa attracts a very mixed crowd. While schools like ynj are taught by chareidim, the parent body is much less diverse and seem to espouse the chareidi lite hashkafa. Are you advocating then that the true Mo belongs to YCT? I shudder to think that is what you are referring to becuase they seem to border dangerously close to Conserative Ideology. If that is the choice then sign me up for chareidi lite any day.
Bergen, Charedi lite might work for you but it is not ideal. It is a huge frustration amung many people here that there is no middle of the road school where most of the paretts are like minded. As a result we sell out and send our kids to a yeshiva which is charedi lite as are the rebbeim they hire. Sometimes I do find myself associating more with chovevie over this charedi lite which I think is a sad state of affairs for our community. Many in our community are so scared to be labled as being "Modern Orthodox" instead of embracing it and trying to make it something great that they choose to sell out to charedi ideals and hashkafos. This is true of some of the rabbonim as well as the balabatim. It's time we stop being afraid of being Modern Orthodox and we stand up and make it into a great movement. Why do we need to sell out to the righ or the left when the shvil hazahav is there and waiting for us?
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