Monday, July 13, 2009


This post is a long time in the coming and I think it is necessary for clarification purposes, given that there are, I am told, a lot of people who I both know and do not know that currently read my blog. Over the last few months, as a direct result of things I have posted here I have come under fire from many places. I have been called things such as a self hating Jew, an anti-Semite, a hypocrite and various other things due to some of my posts so let me be clear about why I continue to blog in the style and on the issues that I do. The most important thing in all of our lives is our great religion, it is all encompassing and our lives revolve around our avodas hashem. When how we perform our avodas hashem and how we live our lives is being threatened we must stand up and defend it my any and all means necessary.

As I have stated on many occasions in the past, Modern Orthodoxy is being threatened from both within and without and we must not remain silent. People are infiltrating our communities and are trying to change how we live our lives and our hadrachos hachaim, there are teachers in our kids schools and camps who feel that instead of trying to be role models and teach our kids it is their job to be “mekarev” the Modern Orthodox. There are speakers that come into our communities and our homes that have nothing but distain for us and tell us as much yet they have no problem taking our money and worse we have no problem giving it to them and honoring them in the process. There are yeshivos in our communities that, instead of trying to be role models in the community and contribute to the community feel that it is their job to point our short comings and “change us”. They tell us that our eruv is no good, but “they” can fix it, they tell the guys learning in their yeshiva that in general the kashrus in the community is not good but “I” can check it out and let you know where you can and cannot eat. They tell the guys in their Yeshiva that the community does not know what “true b’nei torah” are so it is your job to show them. Instead of working together with us and trying to improve us and our avodas hashem these people are trying to change us and make us into something that we are not because they feel that only their way is the right way.

Let me be clear, I hold not personal grudge against any single person and even when I write about an individual it is not personal, you are my brother and I love you, but your hashkafos are wrong for us and your positions are detrimental to the future of our religion. From a man like Rabbi Sherman deciding arbitrarily who is and who is not Jewish; mark my word, it begins with deciding which geirus is valid and which is not but it is a slippery slope that will end up on our door steps with a group of people deciding who is and is not Jewish by how they dress and how they interpret halachah. If you are with us good but if not we will no longer count you or your children as being Jewish. On the other side it is people like Rabbi Avi Weiss and Yitz Greenberg who are so out of the mainstream that soon their brand of Orthodoxy will not be recognizable.

We are at war, and it is a civil war. Like the American Revolutionary War, it is being fought among us in our homes and our children are learning about it with their own eyes. Why is it necessary? Let me live my life, halachicaly, and you live yours the same way. Just like I won’t come into your house and tell you what, in my opinion (which at the end of they day is all that it is) you are doing wrong, you stay out of my house. I interpret things my way and you do your way and that is what makes Orthodoxy flourish as it does because it is open to many different interpretations WITHIN THE 4 AMOS OF HALACHA. The minute you tell me that my hashkafos are wrong and therefore everything I believe in must be discounted because they do not fit into your box, you throw everything that is great about our religion out of the window. The Sanhedrin was made up of 70 men and each one brought something unique to the table, they did not operate like robots, but some of today’s leaders would have you believe that our children must be placed in a mold and everyone must conform do the same thing. Who told you this? Where does this come from?

Last week we began period of the 3 weeks where we mourn our loss of a national identity; the beis hamikdash was a place where all Jews from all walks of life were brought together and it was destroyed because of senseless bickering and fighting. You would think that over 2000 years we would have learned our lesson yet here we still are fighting and arguing over nonsense, the color and texture of the yarmulkah or hat, our clothes our education, at the end of the day is that what really defines us as a religion? If it does we are in worse shape than I thought. Have we really fallen so far that one group can have the audacity to decide that they are the only ones who represent “true Torah Judaism?” What makes your learning any better than mine? What makes the beis Medrash in Lakewood any different than the beis Medrash in YU? Torah is something that is supposed to unite us yet today it is being used as a tool to divide us by some on the extreme ends of our religion.

Stand up and fight for what you believe in, scream it from the rooftops (or keyboards) that what we have, all of us, as long as it fits the framework and is within the confines of Halachah is genuine. We all worship the same G-d and follow the same laws yet these semantics are being used to drive us apart. I blog because I fear for our future and will not stand by silently while Rome burns. How dare you use violence against a fellow Jew? How dare you lift a hand or a rock against your brother? If you feel he is doing the wrong thing show him why he should be doing the right thing. Show those who are not yet frum why they should be frum, show them what Orthodoxy has to offer. Instead of throwing rocks at them and protesting them why not have a huge tish in the middle of kikar shabbos with zemiros and divrei torah (and chullent) and show our fellow brethren what is beautiful about Orthodoxy. Don’t come into my house, tell me my children are not B’nei Torah then hold yourself up as a communal leader, come to our yeshivos and our shuls let us share our hashkafos and hadrachos with you and you share yours with us, but if it is only going to go one way we are doomed.

So as we go through the three weeks, 9 days Tisha B’Av and then begin Elul, let us come together and focus on that which unites our religion. Enough of trying to claim the flag for yourself because at the end of the day you are going to be left standing alone holding the flag. Don’t try to be “mekarev” me and my children because we are already frum and don’t need to be told how to live, but come to us and tell us how you can enhance our avodas hashem and how we can enhance yours. It should not be us v. them it should be us united living a common dream.

148 comments:

The Law said...

Its sad that you needed to write a post like this. but at the same time, whats sadder is that those to your "right" would never put something like this on paper as it would be viewed as some sort of capitulation.

keep on keepin on...

The Hedyot said...

First you say: "...it is people like Rabbi Avi Weiss and Yitz Greenberg who are so out of the mainstream that soon their brand of Orthodoxy will not be recognizable."

Then, you write, "The minute you tell me that my hashkafos are wrong and therefore everything I believe in must be discounted because they do not fit into your box, you throw everything that is great about our religion out of the window. "

You're perfectly comfortable with writing Avi Weiss out of Judaism, but you think it's such a travesty when black-hatters do it to you?!

Don't you realize that the same way that you view Avi Weiss is how they view you? How can you complain about what they're doing, when you are doing the exact same thing? Yes, I know you might say say that Avi Weiss is too far outside the confines of halacha, but then wouldn't they say the same thing about you? And wouldn't Avi Weiss say that he is within the parameters of halacha just like you would say to the Lakewooders?

Honestly Frum said...

As I wrote a few weeks ago, with the Maharat School it appears that R' Avi Weiss is pushing the envelope just a bit too far. I like to think that we do not push any envelope or introduce inovations into our daily lives with regards to religion and Halacha. I see the only differences between most of us as being those of semantics.

The Hedyot said...

> I like to think that we do not push any envelope...

Seriously? That's your defense? "You like to think" that it's no big deal? Did it ever occur to you that "they like to think" that what MO communities do is a big deal?

My point still stands. You're doing to those to your left exactly what you're complaining about those to the right of you are doing to you. Your explanation is merely a subjective claim that what you're doing isn't as bad as what they're doing, but again, those who you're complaining about might make the same subjective argument about you.

Anonymous said...

Talk about coincidence the Yated published an article about Avi Weiss and the Maharat issue.

Matzav.com picked it up this afternoon.

Honestly Frum said...

I saw that and I may sound like a hypocrite, but I do not think that Yated should be commenting on this. YU, and perhpas the OU yes. Agudah and Yated no.

Anonymous said...

Why should YU or the OU be the sole institutions responsible for speaking out against YCT? They don't support YCT. YCT has its own idiology. Agudah and Yated are well with in their rights to speak out on this one.

Honestly Frum said...

For the same reason I do not think it is the place of Yu roshei yeshiva to speak out against the riots in Israel I don't think it is the Agudah's place to comment on Chovevie, clean up your own house first.

Anonymous said...

seriously... so hypocritical... basically you're just screaming the same stuff that the reform and conservative (and apparently the extremely modern orthodox) scream at those to the right of them... "why cant you just accept that we are both right!"
just admit that all you want is for charedim to accept you already... don't hide behind pretense.

teaneck circle said...

Honestly Frum YCT is not part of our house. They are as much part of our house as Hebrew Union College is.

Honestly Frum said...

Teaneck, I am very torn on it. I believe that you are, unfortunately correct, but up until the MAHARAT fisaco I held out hope that they were different than that. I would not call them conseravtive yet but they are teetering on the brink.

teaneck circle said...

Unfortunately you are also correct. The Rav's derech of torah unfortunately is being attacked and jeopordized from both sides now. Those of us who are talmidim of the Rav's talmidim need to stick together now more than ever.

Keep up the great work.

Anonymous said...

no one is trying to mekarev you. you are a lost cause. furthermore your censorship is identical to that of the yated, so you are also a hypochrite. they won't allow conflicting opinions neither will you. you are as guilty of corruption as the people that you accuse the same thing of. this does not reduce their culpability though in any way.
grow up, stop being a cry baby, let everyone voice his or her opinion, and then maybe you will deserve an iota of respect. but will you play mr. pravda of the soviet union, you have my and many other's contempt!
have a nice life!

The Hedyot said...

> basically you're just screaming the same stuff that the reform and conservative (and apparently the extremely modern orthodox) scream at those to the right of them... "why cant you just accept that we are both right!"

And, like the right wing yeshivish do, saying to those to the left of you, "you're not frum enough!"

Anonymous said...

"I like to think that we do not push any envelope or introduce inovations into our daily lives with regards to religion and Halacha. I see the only differences between most of us as being those of semantics."

you are such a loser, it's pathetic. what do you think the BDA are doing when they close shulchan oruch and pasken like NY law when it comes to dividing assets during a divorce and ignore all the rishonim claiming this is dina de'malchusah dina?

what do you think the same body does when it recognizes gittin that are unacceptable to everone else because of the NY Get law.

who are you foling. cvensor me. send the KGB after me already because i am telling the truth. you are such an ignoramus i really have pity for you. wake up already man, cut the cr*p out.

teaneck circle said...

The right wing Yeshivish may say YU isn't frum enough. Meaning we're frum but we have some changes to make. And that is debatable. However for the most part those of us who did learn in YU aren't that different from the right wing yeshivish. Our main differences are our approach's to Eretz Yisroel, and our approach to dealing with everyday life in america (clothing,secular education, etc.) Besides that when it comes to hilchos shabbos, kashrus, and taharos hamishpachah there are no significant differences. We all follow the same, shulchan ruch and gedolim on this. We are all following Rav Moshe and Rav Shlomo Zalman. I had a very nice conversation this past shabbos with someone from lakewood (a ten year BMG veteran) and he came to the same conclusion

Unfortunately there are many in out circle who will say we follow torah umaddah and from there make up their own agends (YCT as a prime example.)

Unfortunately there are many in the "Yeshivish" camp who make up their own agenda as well. It's up to those of us who follow the true derech's of our Rabbonim to learn from one another to improve our selves.

Honestly Frum said...

Teaneck Circle, that is the point I am trying to make with this post, we all do the same thing and follow the same shulchan aruch, it's nitty gritty details in clothes and minor hashkafic issues that drive us appart. To the nut case that can't seem to get the hint, FYI, Rabbi Broyde was very close with Rav Shlomo Zalman and much of what they do is based on psak from him and others, do you have an issue with Rav Shlomo Zalman as well? Maybe with Rav Moshe, after all you seem to have all the answers.

teaneck circle said...

HF my apoligies. My comments weren't directed at you, but at the prior two comments from the Hedyot and an Anonymous. I was trying to help explain your position a little clearer. My apoligies if I upset you.

The Hedyot said...

I hate to break it to you guys, but even though there are many in the yeshivish circles who are seicheldik, and appreciate that there is much in common between the MO and RW, the vast majority of black hatters see MO as totally krum (bordering on kefira). This is how they view even the shtark MO, and they would never let their daughters (unless she is 'troubled') marry into a MO family.

Seriously, if all you think it is is a few minor hashkafik issues, you need to listen to how they speak about even the MO gedolim. It is with the utmost disdain and contempt. They don't respect your torah and shmiras hamitzvos one iota. You see yourselves as having far more in common with them than you do YCT, but to them, you and YCT are all in the same boat, and the difference between you and YCT is like the way you see the difference between Reform and Reconstruction.

Wheter it's past MO gedolim, like The Rav or Rav Kook, or current gedolim, like R Herscel Schachter or R' Ahron Lichtenstein, or MO yeshivas like YU or Shaalavim, or even if its MO communities like Teaneck and Ra'anana, the overwhelming majority of yeshivish people view all of MO as a corrupt distortion of what real yiddishkeit is supposed to be. Just like you view Avi Weiss and his movements.

Sorry to break the news to you guys, but this is the sad truth. I say this as one who was a card carrying black hatter for a good 6-7 years of his life.

The Leader, Garnel Ironheart said...

All right, Garnel's in the house...

Your post is one reason I started my blog, to try and find a nice centrist position where everyone could agree. Unfortunately after about, oh say 1-2 posts, I realized that position doesn't exist so I created my own.

As The Hedyot noted, if MO is going to rant at the Chareidim that they're not taking you seriously, then you have to answer a question: what's the difference between that and when the non-Orthodox complain that MO doesn't take them seriously?

The instinctive answer is: well we keep halacha that they don't. Now segueway far enough into the Chareidi community and you see that they say the same thing about you. Guys who cover their heads most of the time, married women who don't cover their hair, girls wearing less-than-tznius clothing by any standard, relying on eveyr kashrus leniency in the book and most of the time not even being away that it's a leniency that's being relied on, all these are accusations that the Chareidim can make against the MO community.

The problem with MO is that it is defined in the negative. You're not Chareidim. You're not Conservatives. But that's about as far as it goes. What are you FOR? What are your principles?

Listen, a Jew can live a completely halachic life and not be Chareidi. A part of the Dati Leumi community, for example, is separated from the Chareidim by uniform only - black hat vs knitted kippah. Sounds like a stupid way to differentiate between them but there you go.
But the point is: to be Dati Leumi you also have to believe in certain things, accept a certain uniform and see yourself as part of a defined group.

But what about MO? If the term includes both YCT on the left and the right-most wings of YU on the right, then who DON'T you include? What don't you stand for?

There are blogs out there by guys who call themselves Modern Orthodox but who reject Torah MiSinai. Is the definition of MO so loose as to include kefirah?

This is why MO cannot fight back against Chareidi intimidation. The Chareidim come with a given standard. You reply: well, I hold such-and-such, and somewhere to your left the YCT crowd shouts "we don't agree we think everything's permitted!".

You don't like Rav Sherman deciding the status of geirim everywhere? He has stated a halachic opinion and has his entire community behind him. His objectors haven't come up with a single proof against him and they can't even agree on what a valid conversion is or isn't!

If MO is to survive, it must define itself more firmly and that firm defnition is going to leave out a lot of people who thought they were MO but really aren't. In other words, some feelings will have to be hurt. But that's the only way.

The Law said...

Garnel i have to take issue.

MO isnt defined in the negative, the religion to the right of it is. Ask someone what it means to be yeshivish or described as "really frum" and they will tell you they DONT go to movies, DONT watch tv, DONT believe in the state of israel, DONT say the tefila for the medina, DONT go to college, DONT go to co-ed schools, etc...

yeshivish position is the anti position. its the only way they can have a outward manifistation of their religious beliefs. Also it breeds the air of exclusivity.

The groups to the left of MO are the ones who are also defined as somewhat by rejecting the teaching of the rabbis/sages. conservative and reform judaism reject torah shbaal pe.

MO judaism accepts modernity. In that it does not accept that fact that in order to survive judaism needs to be sequestered and reject the outside world. as a result it can accept the state of israel and support it, it can accept the notion of going to college, it can accept the idea of having a job. all while still holding fast to torah shebaal pe.

this is the difference on the spectrum.

Yeshivish must cloister judaism to survive rejecting anything and everything deemed "outside world", MO can embrace it while accepting torah shebaal pe, conservative/reform embrace the outside while rejecting torah she baal pe.

Garnel Ironheart said...

I don't see it that way, The Law.

The Chareidim define themselves in a very positive way: they DO avoid modern entertainment, DO believe that the state of israel is a heretical creation, DO avoid showing any respect for the medina, DO emphasize Torah education to the exclusion of all else, DO go to separate schools.

Yes, it sounds subtle but that subtletly makes all the difference. They more rally around what they think is right and then dismiss everything else to the left. Exclusivity is a positive expression because you choose your group and stick wiht it.

Conservatism is also positive - they have created a new definition of halacha and they run with it.

The problem with MO building roads to the secular world is that too often MO goes towards secularism but secularism rarely comes the opposite way.

Anonymous said...

Hedyot sadi I hate to break it to you guys, but even though there are many in the yeshivish circles who are seicheldik, and appreciate that there is much in common between the MO and RW, the vast majority of black hatters see MO as totally krum (bordering on kefira). This is how they view even the shtark MO, and they would never let their daughters (unless she is 'troubled') marry into a MO family.

I have to tell you that this isn't true. You make assumptions about us Black Hatters. There are many things about the YU world we respect. There are things we don't. But their are also things about the chassidish world we take issue with as well.

What you need to understand is that this world is not black and white (even though we dress that way.) We eat in your restaurants, daven in your shuls when we are out of our element, and go to the same chol hamoed activities. Yes their are dfferences, but we don't view you out of the pale of Judaism. Krum are those who create women rabbi's, or whatever Avi is calling them. Rav Schachter is a Godel that we are machsheer. He spoke in Ner Yisroel when I was a bachur. Please never make assmptions about our community.

The Hedyot said...

I'm not assuming anything. I lived fully in the black hat world for 7 years, and all my family is still entirely yeshivish (or chassidish). I'm not assuming. I know it firsthand. I hear exactly how they talk about people outside their community. Just to show one of your examples I would disagree with - you say "you eat in MO restaurants?" Really? How many chareidim can you show me who would eat in a restaurant that has only a rabbanut hechsher? I have yet to meet a serious chareidi who would be comfortable even seen in such a place!

I have a 33 year old single female chareidi cousin. Her father is a respected rosh yeshiva in yerushalayim. She is a normal, fun, and wonderful person, and is dying to get married. But no matter how many times I suggested it, she will not even consider going out with a merkaz harav guy. It's out of the question.

I know that you can point to exceptions, but please don't tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Anonymous said...

The hedyot, regarding your cousin, people are afraid of kefirah that is the bottom line!
It starts "small" hallel on yom ho'atsomoys, sheirut le'umi, then it becomes arguing with gedolim, moving to settlements against rav shach, ignoring tznius, hanging out on ben yuehuda, being mattir aishes ish like goren etc, etc.
she is dying to get married not marrying to die and lose her oylam habo.

Anonymous said...

I've lived in it my whole life so that's quite a bit longer than 7 years. Also your talking Israel I am talking America. There is no Rabbanut here. We're talking BP vs. Teaneck not Meah Sharim vs. Ranaanah.

I have to tell you my YU friends (and I have a few some of them even wear srugies) would never eat in a Rabbanut restaurant.

As for your cousin She should leave home.

Yes you don't know what you are talking about. Things are much more polarized in Israel then they are in America.

teaneck circle said...

I went to a movie a few weeks ago (Transformers I'll never grow up) I loved watching the two Chassidish guys who were there eating hot food from the snack bar. I wonder if it was rabbanut?????

The Law said...

i think the problem is generalizing as a group. hedyot just becase you grew up in a "black hat house" doesnt mean you speak for that community as a whole. just as i do not profess to speak for the entire MO community.

Garnel - now we are playing semantics. Its like me saying a vegitarian isnt against meat he just loves vegetables. its simply not true, they are against eating meat.

Honestly Frum said...

To Garnel and Hedyot, I recognize that this is a pipe dream at best and I have heard the venom and sickness spewed from the mouthes of some of these people who call themselves rabbis. Many of them do not recognize that we are frum as well and discard everything that our community has to offer. Please re read what I wrote. They view themselves as the exclusives keepers of the Torah and everyone else, in their opinion, has no chelek at all. They have such a hatred for our community and our rabbonim that they are blinded and cannot see the greatness of our gedolim such as Rav Aaron and rav Schachter. I also recognize that my hashkafos are far closer to R' Avi Weiss' than they are to Rabbi Sherman, which is why the Maharat incedent is upsetting to me becuase for the first time I personally feel that I can no longer associate myself with him. I believe that in the next 20 years the tide will shift because the tzedakah system is all dried up at this point. I posted what i did becuase I am being attacked by many who are accusing me of baseless haterd, I have no hatred, I have a love for Judaism and the Torah and I am pained to see how it is highjacked by many in Lakewood and Israel and sold as a toll used to divide us when there is really not that much difference between us.

Anon, It is well known that Baltimore is a different animal. Many of the people who learn there are a lot more tolerant and open minded than the rest of the Yeshivish world.

The Hedyot said...

Look, I don't really care one way or another if anyone believes me. It doesn't matter to me.

I just think that you guys who grew up and live in the MO world don't really understand how many in the chareidi world thinks of you.

But think whatever you want. It makes no difference to me.

Anonymous said...

hedyot you cant be yeshivish, you use the internet...

Anonymous said...

and your icon is a white hat!

Anonymous said...

He had a yareidah. He was only there for 7 years.

The Law said...

alot of people go to school for 7 years... yea they're called doctors...

Shalom, Cherry Hill said...

To Honestly,

Keep up your good work.

Your position isn't entirely consistent, as one can see where Chareidim can look at MO like MO look at Conservative and Reform; however--life can be messy. We are humans, not robots, and not always entirely logical or consistent. How are the Chareidim any more consistent than MO? They go crazy over tzniut and turn a blind eye to bein adam l'chaveiro. How many illegal basemement apartments are there in Lakewood--against the building codes and not declaring the income?
I'm sure that Rabbi Cohen would say that 'dina d'malchusa dina' doesn't apply to goyim.

Don't take the above as just Chareidi bashing-- my point is simply that none of us are perfect, not Chareidi, MO, Chardal (religious hashkafa, not mustard) or anyone, which is why all of us should be more humble and accepting. Don't hold your breath, though.

Anonymous said...

great post. honestly lets fix our schools including the ones in teaneck-bergen who only hire charedi rebbis and are afraid to call themselves rz.

Torah umadahh is a shitah in yahdut

Anonymous said...

Which school only hires Charedi Rebbi's?

Honestly Frum said...

Moriah

The Hedyot said...

By the way, for an example of how the right-wing chareidi world sees people who are more centrist than them (not even officially MO), see this issue that just came up today where Yated slams a Center-Right/Yeshivish rabbi as "no different than a Conservative or Reform rabbi."

Pretty much exactly how I described it yesterday.

Anonymous said...

no not moriah you know which one it makes no effort to hire yu rebbis

Anonymous said...

Considering I may purchase a home in the neighborhood and am looking into schools now I'd like to know. If you have a legitimate compliant please share it. If you are a rebel rouser please go away.

Honestly Frum said...

Anon, YNJ in general does not hire YU (type) rebbeim but rather tend to go with more charedi rebbeim. Noam has more of a YU type hashkafah and hires more middle of the road rebbeim and I cannot speak for Yavneh becuase I do not know but I believe they hire YU (type) as well.

Anonymous said...

HF, you state in your post -- seemingly in reference to chareidim that disagree with -- "you are my brother and I love you". Does that apply to the rabbi of the shul that you attended in your youth? Do you love him?

Honestly Frum said...

Anon, I must unfortunately act like Rabbi Sheman in this instance and question whether that man has any kedushas yisrael. I am also not sure if my love extends to reshaim, I don't think I have any love for Bernie Madoff, and in the same vane I have no love for that evil man who caused my family and community so much pain. He will have his day of reckoning and all of his good deeds, and he has many, will not outweigh his evil ones, V" Chol Ha Risha Kulah Keashan tichleh ki taavir memshelet zadon min haaretz.

Anonymous said...

if you are looking into schools
ynj-charedi rebbiem i would be happy with yu right but for the nost part excpet for two charedi noam tries to hire centrist yu i do not know the rest. i would love for ynj to be yu you right but for some reason they are pushung along with bergenfield (beth abraham crowd ni, chefetz chaim) rebbim are from monsey lakewoodetc ni etc and are pushing there good luck honestly should clean up our own neighboorhod first ala this

Anonymous said...

any person who believes the new fangled ideas of the modern orhtodox have any shaiches whatsover with torah is only deluding himself.

Anonymous said...

Anon said any person who believes the new fangled ideas of the modern orhtodox have any shaiches whatsover with torah is only deluding himself.

Really. Please ellabirate your point by siting some specific examples. I can't wait to here this one.

Honestly Frum said...

Anon, your problem i that you don't truly believe int he Torah or G-d. Your hashkafos and beliefes are so far from mainstream judaism that you are now part of some new violent religion which claims to believe in G-d and the torah yet you spend your time ignoring it and desecrating the name of G-d.

The Law said...

Anon 8:52 -

You are an idiot.

that is all.

Anonymous said...

i see now dishonestly non frum is also a novi. he knows whether I truly believe in hashem or not. Interesting...
The ones ignoring the torah are the modernishe with their corrupt BDA Catholic Court, changinmg the Halocha.
I posted examples of this but they were removed by mr. pravda himself.
I will reiterate: BDA has a corrupt interpretation of dina de'malchusa dina k'neged the rishonim such as the Tur, Rashbo and bais Yosef.
They claim a Get forced by NY secular court is valid when every godol on the planet says it is NOT.

they also claim there is no such thing as a woman being a moredes for practical purposes. in other words she would not be penalized for being halachically a moredes.

they also claim that a woman who goes to secular court with no vlaid heter still has the right to demand a get in bais din which is mefurash ke'neged the ramo!

if you don't believe me call them up an d check with them and get back to us.

also ask them if their bais din in all its years has ever awarded custody to the man and not to the woman.

are these examples enough for you?

But I am sure this will be removed again by mr. pravda. if it were satmar's bais din shown to be doing the wrong thing, mr. pravda would print it, but not when it is about the BDA!

Anonymous said...

estom bashing rav schwartz shilta why can we get him to come to teaneck for a shabbos a true gadol

Anonymous said...

R'HF
As they teach in negotiations - what's your BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement)?
Charedi hashkafa can not grant you/us legitimacy without suffering the "how are you gonna keep them down on the farm" syndrome.
She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu
KT
Joel Rich

Anonymous said...

i agree he is most welcome in teaneck. he is a godol be;kfirah

Anonymous said...

this rav has an haskamah from rak do you smart paints. honestly bring rav schwarts shlitah to teaneck

Anonymous said...

rak would have removed it if he knew the kefirah that this man has involved himself in.
please also list whom dovid cohen has haskoma's from, who cares!

Proud MO said...

I love this anon guy posting here. He highlights everything we blog about.

The Law said...

you know, i usually have to go to YWN and read the comments to get this much amusement, but the anon poster here who is foaming at the mouth is just as entertaining.

I just love the irony of him bashing the "modernish" while he surfs the web, something his gedolim have banned and only some have permited for parnasa use only. I guess that means HF's blog leads to this guys parnasa...

what a complete tool...

lvnsm said...

Like I say on my blog 'A bit of light', we Jews desparatly need to communicate with each other so we can understand each other and then connect as the family we are.

lvnsm said...

And also focus on eachother's goodness

Anonymous said...

He really hates us (Maybe becuase he thinks we are out of the pale of Judaism). What he doesn't get is that we love him (the mitzvah of Vahavta lreachah camochah). We just want him to open his eyes a little, and to understand there is not one derech of torah. He wants us to drop dead and go straight to gehenom.

To Anon who hates everybody I am mochel u blev shalem (I hope my fellow bloggers are as well). Please everyone join me and be mispallel for hakodosh baruch hu do grant him a little sechel.

teaneck circle said...

Perhaps he's in Meah Sharim protesting and getting his ead bashed in by the mishtarah. There is a big protest going on there right now.

Honestly Frum said...

I just want to point out that my post which was about ahavas yisrael and putting our differences aside was dragged into the mud by this guy anon. You are a fool and a sonie hashem. Please go back to yeshiva and learn some derech eretz and midos. Here in Teaneck we have symposions for ahavas yisrael and take it very seriously, Do you have those in the cave that you live in, if not maybe you should find one and attend it.

The Hedyot said...

It's sad how distorted this Anon guy is, but this is exactly what I am saying. These guys see you as kofrim. They aren't 'goires' you in the slightest. The same way you see YCT is how they view you, as a distortion of torah true Judaism. And they are more than just a small minority. In my experience, the people who hold these views (even if they are usually more polite than this guy) make up the vast majority of the black hat world.

Honestly Frum said...

Hedyot, I think the difference between my view of YCT and them is that I recognize that YTC does have some good parts, however somethings they do are not within the mainstream. They do contribute to the left wing of Modern Orthodoxy and I reconize that they serve a purpose. This nut and his type dismiss everything we do out of hand.

The Hedyot said...

HF -
Then you're making my point even stronger.

The Law said...

hedyot - actually he is showing you the difference. the exact opposite of your point...

someone said...

we should also understand that not everyone is the same. While some people might be rude, there are also others who are very nice.

Maybe the nice individuals in different groups should gather and be a good example for otherss

Anonymous said...

I see that I have been in sulted yet again by you modernishe guys who love me sooo sooo much. however, there is not a single refutation of the facts as to why I have accused that bais din of kefirah and why their so called pesakim are beyond the pale. i don't mind the name calling but answer the allegations as well. clearly you guys are unable to do so. why don't you contact the zokein mamreih himself or prof broyde and ask them tlo explain themselves if you can't even justify their distortions of hilchos momnus and hilchos gittin.

You can curse me out all you want but there still has not been a single factual refutation of what I wrote. so much for your open mindedness!

refute the reasons why accused this BDA group of kefirah. don't shoot the messanger, its the message you can't deal with.

The Law said...

anon troll -

the internet is assur, stop being a hypocrite....

Anonymous said...

Again, unable to answer my points. Answer the issues, afterwards we can discuss the internet.
if it's ossur for me, its ossur for you.

Anonymous said...

You haven;t been refuted because for the same reason you don't refute a holocaust denier. You aren;t machshiv people who twist the truth. Have fun with your good friend Ahmadinejad in the olam ha emes.

Anonymous said...

is the beth din of elizabeth okay with you moran

Honestly Frum said...

I think this guy only likes batei dinim like they have in the charedi circles in Brooklyn where the jugement goes to the highest bidder.

The Law said...

internet isnt assur for me, i dont hold of the psak that it is assur, my rabonim dont be believe in cloistered judaism.

in fact, using the internet makes you modernish...

welcome to the fold...

Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

Besides that when it comes to hilchos shabbos, kashrus, and taharos hamishpachah there are no significant differences.

News flash -- same goes for YCT, Ma‘aleh Gilboa‘, Petaḥ Tiḳva, etc.

Baal Habos said...

>I like to think that we do not push any envelope or introduce inovations into our daily lives with regards to religion and Halacha. I see the only differences between most of us as being those of semantics.

Excellent post. Well, part of it, anyway. Yes, you succesfully demonstrate that the distinctions that separate Chareidim and MO differ than those that separate YCT and MO. But that's no indication of anything.

Satmar might say RW yeshivish is off base. Yeshivish say Lubavitch and MO is off base. Black hatters say dark blue hatters are off base. Those who don't eat Yoshon are on a higher madreigah than those who do. Adherents of OU kashrus claim triangle K is treif. There's no end; when you arbitrarily draw the line where you want to draw it.

In affect, you're saying that where you draw the line between you and YCT is fine but the Chareidim have no right to do that with respect to your ideals and practice.


I have to agree with Hedyot

Honestly Frum said...

Let me clarrify, I do not look down on Rabbi Weiss and I do not dimiss everything he does out of hand. I take issue with a few of his choices and disagree with them (for whatever my opinion is worth) but I still see the good in much of what he does and recognize the need for his yeshiva, unlike the charedim that try to be mekarev my kids in my own school and dismiss everything we do totaly out of hand.

Baal Habos said...

>Let me clarrify, I do not look down on Rabbi Weiss and I do not dimiss everything he does out of hand.


Now you're quibbling. Looke what you said in your post:

"On the other side it is people like Rabbi Avi Weiss and Yitz Greenberg who are so out of the mainstream "

You declare them to be out of the mainstream. That's exactly what Chareidim do to MO.

Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

Baal Habos:

In HF's defense, there's a difference between being "out of the mainstream" and being "beyond the pale".

Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

unless you define "mainstream" and the boundaries of 'the pale' as equivalent, as one particularly obnoxious person tried to do to me a few months ago when she described MO as "not mainstream" and then went on to accuse our leaders and rabbis of being liars, sinners and מחטיאים את הרבים for their relatively lenient psak on issues like negi‘a and qol isha.

Anonymous said...

Again, a total lack of ability to address the issues i raised. The catholic court in elizabeth is not acceptable to orthodox jews. the reason why there is no monetary corruption in a mo catholic court is two fold 1) they are mi'chutz le'machaneh and don't have the same yetzer horah for money 2)these guys charge so much for attending their court that they are all so wealthy anyway fleecing the litigants.
as for the garbage about not answering me comparing me to ahminijad, the comment is so bizarre it must have come from a mo thug!

Anonymous said...

The ignorant troll is back. I imagine he is a young lad back from his shaneh bet from some brain washing yeshiva. Do yourself a favor and go back to the beis medrash. When you grow up and learn reality you will find out that all your thoughts on the BDA are false. They are untrue. B'hatzlacha.

Honestly Frum said...

How was your nap?

Off the Derech said...

Garnel doesn't believe in TMS.

Off the Derech said...

Re acceptance: Most RW chevra I know wouldn't be caught dead in a college, INCLUDING YU.

Off the Derech said...

If they're mamesh kifrim, MAYBE Touro.

Anonymous said...

again, address the issues instead of insulting me. answer as to why the kofrim of the BDA have corrupted halocho. No answer, because there is no answer.

modern orthodoxy is worse than reform. at least reform are honest when they reject halocho. modern orthodox claim they follow halocho. they follow NY law k'neged halocho.

Anonymous said...

You really don't know what you are talking about. You really have no clue what happens at the BDA. If you want I can arrange for you to spend some time there so you can see the lies your "Rebbe" taught you this past year.

Anonymous said...

I have spoken extensivelt to someone on that catholic court. i know what they hold and it is a different religion form judaism. i am capable of opening seforim myself, so you can shove your offer. why don't you go and ask them to justify their cannonical rulings?
the pope is currently incapaqcitated maybe one of them can be me'malei mokom.

Anonymous said...

So young. So much to learn. I remember those innocent days of my youth. Clearly you havn't spoken to anyone. The mishtarah must have bashed your head in during the protests last night you causing you to imagine you did.

Now go back to the beis medrash.

Anonymous said...

what a fool. you have no idea how old am! again with the insults, but a total lack of ability to address the issues.
another problem with the mo is that the vast majority are such ignoramouses that if someone can read rashi they think he is a godol.
since when are schwartz, willig et al considered gedolim and by whom? have they been asked to give shiurim in mir, ponevez, lakewood or brisk?
they wouldn't let them address their kindergartens!
AGAIN, ANSWER THE HALOCHO QUERIES, ADDRESS THIS ISSUES YOU MO MORONS.
WHO ARE WILLIG ET AL TO ARGUE WITH THE RASHBO, THE TUR AND BAIS YOSEF?

Anonymous said...

Young man you really have no clue. Your last line proved it.

You should be gabenched. Have a wonderful shabbos and a meaningful life.

Honestly Frum said...

Dude, get a grip. Rabbi Willig has more torah in his little pinky than most of your "gedolim" could ever hope to have in ten lifetimes and it is yaduah that rav schachter is probably the greatest posek in America and one of the greatest in the World. Even most of your closed minded charedi friends will admit that.

Anonymous said...

HF you have one guy call Rav Willig Shlita a kofer beikur, and another person calling him a chareid nut. I wonder how he got such a polarizing efffect? Perhaps his talents on the court in Moko got to some people. I still haven't met anyone who beat him.

Anonymous said...

how anyone who is involved with a catholic court can be a godol is beyond me. have you heard of rav dovid feinstein, have you heard of rav menashe klein, have you heard of rav eliyohu levin of rav shlomo miller?
answer the facts, the interpretation of dina de'malchusa dina of the BDA circus is kefirah! they are woman's libbers who have corrupted yiddishkeit to suit their totally perverted hashkofos.

Anonymous said...

give this document to read to the cardinal with the red skullcaps at the BDA:

http://www.mishpattsedek.com/Docs/GET_MEUSEH_BEARKAOT-H.pdf

Shabbat shalom and enjoy your girlfriends you mo eirev rav!

Anonymous said...

Girl friends? Please don't tell my wife......

The only married people i know who have girl friends live well let's just say they live in neighborhoods you hope to live in one day.

I'm sure you are off to the mikvah now. Have fun skinny dipping and....... well you know. I know how you boys are.

Anonymous said...

I don't think he's a boy. I think he's someone who got divorced lost his case at either BDA or in Elizabeth moved somewhere because he was ostracized (hit his wife, child endangerment who knows) and now he lives in some basement apartment. He is broygus. The website he referred to trashes ORA which is a well respected organization which has gotten many agunos their gets.

Honestly Frum said...

I wonder if he also held back a get from his wife and was put in cherem by the BDA and that is why he is so broygis. We can check the Jewish Press Siruv listing.

Anonymous said...

HF you are well read and I'm a bit busy. I don't have time to break my teeth on an 81 page article. Can you give us a synopsis of the article he referred to?

Anonymous said...

I advise people who are going throgh divorces! And I seriously advise them to stay away from amy catholic em mo court.

I don't live in a basement not that it is any business of yours.

you don't have time to go through a sefer. but you are already an authority on this matter.

I already provided you with a synopsis of the article. The so called interpretation of the BDA regarding dina de'malchusa dina is sheker ve'kozof.
Any get forced through by NY law is utterly invalid and children born from it are teaneck mamzeirim and any application of ny equitable distribution law is theft!

conclusion: willig, schwartz, broyde et al are meizidim who will have to answer for causing mamzeirim in klal yisroel and for geneivah!
rather spend your time hanging out than learning a bit.
if you don't like the halochah get a new religion, it is called modern orthodoxy.

Anonymous said...

as for breaking your teeth on this sefer, any 10 year old with half of a brain who spent a couple of years in a frum school could breeze through most of it.
i guess i must be a godol by teaneck standards that i understand it.

to you guys, mamzeius amongst the jewish people is a joke. no wonder i call you kofrim.

Anonymous said...

ps: what happened to pravda's censorship?

Anonymous said...

his garbage in this article about the sanhedrin again highlights his utter ignorance. why doesn't he learn a bit the sugya of zokein mamrei who refuses to accept the ruling of the sanhedrin?

Anonymous said...

just for the record, no one is trying to me'agen anyone other than usually the women who me'agein themselves. they go to court to get money they are not entitled to, usually also accompanied by false mesirah claims that the husband abused the children and when it is all over run to a sympathetic catholic court for a get.
well, if you want a get you need one through bais din. and if you go to court you lose your rights to go bais din. if you want to re-establish your rights to bais din, you must be prepared to tear up any awards the courts have made and also fre-pay the leagal costs of your husband, which you are clearly unwilling to do.

so you run to the BDA or elizabeth to put you in the jewish mess or to belsky or mendel epstein or eyr ve;oynon steinberg or acher landesman to get a hit squad to beat you up and then you are all set and you write terrible articles about recaltriant men who are so cruel. get the facts straight you modenishe am haratzim.

at least in the chareidi world they are aware of the corruption of most botei din, you guys are so niave it's pathetic.

at least broyde is entitled to a lot of money for sitting on a catholic court. his sechar betailah could be a few hundred dollars an hour. how do the others justify this? their alternate careers would be jewish cultural studies teachers in MO schools where they would make $40 an hour.

Anonymous said...

Hey dude who lost your case to BDA don;t make fun of someone who politely posted here for a synopsis. I don't know who he is and neither do you. Perhaps he's a baal teshuva. You are going to gehenom that much I'm positive.

As for your article I'll zip through it sometime next week and then tell you where you went wrong. Until then have a nice shabbos in your basement apartment yanking your cord.

Anonymous said...

None of the people I am involved with went to the BDA, for the record. I did speak to someone there a few times at length to try and understand their position and unfortunately the more i heard, the more I knew this was NOT judaism.

Please zip through it and please explain where one of the gedolim got it wrong. i doubt you know one tosafos like rav klein knows kol hatorah kula.

as for making fun, what goes around comes around, come already , please refute the torah ha'kedosha and replace it with your mo garbage. in fact most of the stuff rav klein writes is straight from the rishonim. but he also quotes many great acharonim as well.

please explain to me why you feel i am going to ge'henom is it because i am protesting against the kefirah of the MO and exposing it for what it is. thank the L-rd that he alone will decide where i go, not a teaneck kofer like you.

for the record, you guys are the ones who have started and perpetuated with the personal insults. yet you claim chareidim have no bein odom le'chaveiro.

stick to the facts, let's have an objective intellectual discussion without the insults. prove rav klein, the ridvaz, the remo, the bais yosef, the rashbo and the tur wrong.

find me sources other than mo authorities on which the BDA base their distorted interpretations who are equivalent in number and stature to a few the greats I have quoted and whose opinions i have referred to.

if you want to perpetuate the personal attacks fine but we are going in circles. i am talking facts, you are cursing me out. we are getting nowhere other than proving that you aren't capable of providing any facts. frankly i don't expect otherwise.

As for being in a basement, again totally irrelevant and factually incorrect.

Anonymous said...

You are getting unsults since you have chutzpah to call a well respect beis din a catholic court and to refer to people the way you do. Over shabbos I was reading various letters written by Rav Ahron Kotler wrote against certain practices american rabbanim were taking in the 1950's. In all of his letters he was respectful and gave the Rabbanim he was rebuking proper kovad. If a Gadol like him writes that way certainly someone of your stature should show even more respect. This goes for everyone who is posting on this blog. We may disagree on a great many things, but we do need to give approprate respect.

If you want to see more get a copy of Rav Moshe's teshuvahs regarding the Brooklyn Eruv. He had some very strong arguments, but always showed respect.

Concerned reader said...

Too many "anonymous" posts and the conversation becomes impossible to follow. You've got to start insisting commenters select a Handle. It's your blog. Do it.

Anonymous said...

keep up the censorship, you belong in the soviet union.

出張ホスト said...

女性会員様増加につき、当サイトの出張ホストが不足中です。女性の自宅やホテルに出向き、欲望を満たすお手伝いをしてくれる男性アルバイトをただいま募集していますので、興味のある方はTOPページから無料登録をお願いいたします

家出 said...

最近様々なメディアで紹介されている家出掲示板では、全国各地のネットカフェ等を泊り歩いている家出少女のメッセージが多数書き込みされています。彼女たちはお金がないので掲示板で知り合った男性とすぐに遊びに行くようです。あなたも書き込みに返事を返してみませんか

救援部 said...

オ○ニーライフのお手伝い、救援部でHな見せたがり女性からエロ写メ、ムービーをゲットしよう!近所の女の子なら実際に合ってHな事ができちゃうかも!?夏で開放的になっている女の子と遊んじゃおう

倶楽部 said...

簡単にお小遣い稼ぎをしたい方必見、当サイト逆¥倶楽部では無料登録して女性の性の欲求に応えるだけのアルバイトです。初心者でもすぐに高収入の逆¥交際に興味をもたれた方はTOPページまでどうぞ。

プロフ公開 said...

サイト作成は初めてでぇす。プロフは友達も作ってたので私も頑張って作成しました。プロフもってる人はメル友になって見せ合いっこしませんか?メアドのせてるので連絡ください。love-friend0925@docomo.ne.jp

素人 said...

男性が主役の素人ホストでは、女性の体を癒してあげるだけで高額な謝礼がもらえます。欲求不満な人妻や、男性と出逢いが無い女性が当サイトで男性を求めていらっしゃいます。興味のある方はTOPページからどうぞ

セフレ said...

男性なら一人くらいは作ってみたいセフレですが、実は女性もいつでもSEXしたいときにできる友達がほしいと思っているのです。そのような彼女たちの欲求を満たしてあげませんか

デリバリーホスト said...

女性向け風俗サイトで出張デリバリーホストをしてみませんか?時給2万円の高額アルバイトです。無料登録をしてあとは女性からの呼び出しを待つだけなので、お試し登録も歓迎です。興味をもたれた方は今すぐどうぞ。

チェッカー said...

SM度チェッカーで隠された性癖をチェック!外見では分からない男女のSM指数をチェックして相性のいい相手を見つけ、SMプレイしてみよう!合コンや飲み会で盛り上がること間違いなしのおもしろツールをみんなとやってみよう

熟女サークル said...

性欲のピークを迎えたセレブ熟女たちは、お金で男性を買うことが多いようです。当、熟女サークルでは全国各地からお金持ちのセレブたちが集まっています。女性から男性への報酬は、 最低15万円からとなっております。興味のある方は一度当サイト案内をご覧ください

グリー said...

ネットで恋人探しなら、グリーをおすすめします。ここからあなたの理想の恋愛関係がはじまります。純粋な出会いから、割り切ったエッチな出会いまで何でもあります。ミクシーから女の子が大量流入中!ココだけの話、今が狙い目です

セレブ said...

セレブラブでは心とカラダに癒しを求めるセレブ女性と会って頂ける男性を募集しています。セレブ女性が集まる当サイトではリッチな彼女たちからの謝礼を保証、安心して男性はお金、女性は体の欲求を満たしていただけます。興味がある方は当サイトトップページからぜひどうぞ

プロフ said...

携帯アドのせておきました。恥ずかしい写真とか乗せてるけど、許してください。ネット友達探してるのでよかったら連絡ください。for-a-sweetheart@docomo.ne.jp

ゲイ said...

ゲイの数が飛躍的に増えている現代、彼らの出逢いの場は雑誌やハッテン場からネットに移り変わってきています。当サイトは日本最大のゲイ男性の交流の場を目指して作られました。おかげさまで会員数も右肩上がりに伸びています。ゲイの方や興味のある方はぜひ当サイトをご覧ください。

家出 said...

家出した少女たちは今晩泊る所がなく、家出掲示板で遊び相手を探しているようです。ご飯をおごってあげたり、家に泊めてあげるだけで彼女たちは体でお礼をしてくれる娘が多いようです

素人 said...

さびしい女性や、欲求不満な素人女性たちを心も体も癒してあげるお仕事をご存じですか?女性宅やホテルに行って依頼主の女性とHしてあげるだけで高額の謝礼を手に入れる事が出来るのです。興味のある方は当サイトTOPページをご覧ください

公開プロフ said...

最近いい事ない人集合!話聞いて欲しいって時ないですか?やけに寂しいんですよね。私も聞くので私のも聞いてください。メアド乗せておくのでメールから始めましょうfull-of-hope@docomo.ne.jp

高額アルバイト said...

性欲を持て余し、欲求不満になっている女性を金銭の対価を得て、癒して差し上げるお仕事です。参加にあたり用紙、学歴等は一切問いません。高額アルバイトに興味のある方はぜひどうぞ

右脳左脳チェッカー said...

パーティーや合コンでも使える右脳左脳チェッカー!あなたの頭脳を分析して直観的な右脳派か、理詰めな左脳派か診断出来ます。診断結果には思いがけない発見があるかも!みんなで診断して盛り上がろう

出張ホスト said...

女性会員様増加につき、出張ホストのアルバイトが不足中です。ホテルや女性の自宅に出向き、彼女たちの欲望を満たすお手伝いをしてくれる男性アルバイトをただいま募集しております。興味のある方はTOPページをご覧ください

友達募集 said...

美容院いってきた記念に写メを更新しました。結構気に入ってるんですけどどうですか?メール乗せておくのでメッセお待ちしてるなりmiracle.memory@docomo.ne.jp

家出掲示板 said...

最近雑誌やTVで紹介されている家出掲示板では、全国各地のマンガ喫茶等を泊り歩いている家出少女のメッセージが多数書き込みされています。彼女たちはお金がないので掲示板で知り合った男性の家にでもすぐに遊びに行くようです。あなたも書き込みに返事を返してみませんか

童貞 said...

童貞を奪ってみたい女性たちは、男性にとって「初体験」という一生に一度だけの、特別なイベントを共に心に刻み込むことを至上の喜びにしているのです。そんな童貞好きな女性たちと最高のSEXをしてみませんか

プロフ said...

プロフ作ったわいいけど見てくれる人いなくて少し残念な気分に陥ってます。意見でもいいので見た方がいましたら一言コメント送ってくだしゃいメアドのせているのでよろしくでしゅapotheosis@docomo.ne.jp

乱交パーティー said...

乱交パーティー実施サークル、「FREE SEX NET」では人に見られること、人に見せつける事が大好きな男女が集まり、乱交パーティーを楽しむサークルです。参加条件は「乱交が好きな18歳以上の健康な方」です。興味がある方はぜひ当サイトをご覧ください

家出 said...

家出している女の子と遊んでみませんか?彼女たちはお金に困っているので、掲示板で知り合ったいろんな男の家を泊り歩いている子も多いのです。そんな子たちとの出逢いの場を提供しています

gree said...

ネットで恋人探しなら、greeをおすすめします。ここからあなたの理想の恋愛関係が始まります。純粋な出逢いから、割り切ったHな出逢いまで何でもあります。ミクシーから女の子が大量流入中!ココだけの話、今が狙い目です

逆¥交際 said...

出会ぃも今は逆¥交際!オンナがオトコを買う時代になりました。当サイトでは逆援希望の女性が男性を自由に選べるシステムを採用しています。経済的に成功を収めた女性ほど金銭面は豊かですが愛に飢えているのです。いますぐTOPページからどうぞ

プロフ said...

世界の中心で貴方を叫ぶような恋がしたいんです。愛に飢えているゆいと恋バナ話ませんか?メアドのっけてるので気になる方は連絡頂戴ねuna-cima@docomo.ne.jp

出張ホスト said...

女性向け風俗サイトで出張ホストをしてみませんか?時給2万円以上の高額アルバイトです。無料登録をしてあとは女性からの呼び出しを待つだけでOK、お試し登録も歓迎です。興味をもたれた方は今すぐどうぞ。

彼氏募集 said...

友達の前では少し強がって彼氏なんかいらないって言ってしまうけど、やっぱ本音では欲しいです、夜は寒いし寂しいし私の本音に気付いてください。メアド乗せておくので優しい方連絡くださいtoward.the-future@docomo.ne.jp

若妻 said...

セレブと言われる世の若妻は男に飢えています、特に地位が邪魔して出会いが意外と少ないから、SEXサークルを通じて日頃のストレス発散に毎日男を買い漁っています。ここは彼女達ご用達の口コミサイトです

お宝映像 said...

激レア映像!芸能人のお宝映像を一挙公開中!無料登録するだけでレアなお宝映像やハプニング画像が取り放題、期間限定の動画も見逃せない

熟女 said...

仕事を辞めてください。一日で今の月収を超えるお誘いがあります。某有名セレブ熟女の強い要望により少しの間、恋人契約という女性からのお申し込みがありました。今までは地位や名誉のために頑張ってこられたようでございますが年齢を重ね、寂しさが強くなってきたようでございます。男性との時間を欲しがっている女性に癒しを与えてくださいませ

1人H said...

1人Hのお手伝い、救援部でHな見せたがり女性からエロ写メ、ムービーをゲットしよう!近所の女の子なら実際に合ってHな事ができちゃうかも!?開放的な女の子と遊んじゃおう

メール said...

ストーカーの追い回されて怖いんです。毎日夜になると非通知電話多いし怖い。。。助けてくださいpeach-.-girl@docomo.ne.jp

スタビ said...

復活、スタービーチ!日本最大の友達探しサイトがついに復活、進化を遂げた新生スタービーチをやってみませんか?理想のパートナー探しの手助け、合コンパーティー等も随時開催しています。楽しかった頃のスタビを体験しよう

処女 said...

「友達の中で処女なのは私だけ…でも恥ずかしくて処女だなんて言えない、誰でもイイからバージンを貰ってほしい!」そんな女性が沢山いる事をご存じですか?出合いが無かった、家が厳格だった等の理由でHを経験したことがない女性がたくさんいるのです。当サイトはそんな女性たちと男性を引き合わせるサイトです