Last Friday there appeared on Matzav a most disturbing letter. The letter writer advocated not allowing our daughters and sisters to attend seminary because, in his words, after they get married they need to be "deprogrammed". Here is the letter:
Dear Editor,
I can hear you already: “What does it matter what a man thinks of seminary?” The answer is harsh but true. It matters a great deal, because we are the ones who have to pick up the pieces. Chas veshalom, none of us are against the lofty ideals espoused and theoretically taught in seminary. I would love to see our sisters and daughters in those theoretical seminaries. The fact is, however, that until seminaries are what some seem to think they are, I will do all I can to keep my daughters out of them.
The reasons are simple:
Men currently spend many years for each year their wives were in seminary deprogramming them, and even that never really undoes the damage. A person’s job is to live their life for Hashem. If Hashem wants a man to spend his life serving him in some other field than klei kodesh, that man certainly does not need his eizer kinegdo crying that he is not spending all his time learning. Nor do we need our wives having no appreciation for the G-dly task of raising a family.
Why am I the first one to tell my wife that the reason she is not obligated to do many of the mitzvos is because her life is intrinsically more holy and she does not need to do all that us men need to do to bring us closer to Hashem?
Do you think we appreciate hearing our wives moan that they didn’t daven well this Yom Kippur because they had to take care of the kids?
I hate to say it, but if that is how you feel, there are other religions that feel that way as well. Raising children (and that does not mean having a “goyta” take them so that you can daven more, or working full time) is as holy a calling as there is and our womenfolk are being robbed of a meaningful life by those who claim to be adding meaning to their lives.
A Husband
This letter is disturbing on so many levels I do not know where to start. My wife attended a very highly regarded seminary for two years and I can thankfully say that neither she nor MOST of her friends needed to be "deprogrammed" when they returned. She gained immeasurable knowledge and it greatly increased her avodas hashem and it gave her a great baseline from where to draw in the future.
This guy complains that "Do you think we appreciate hearing our wives moan that they didn’t daven well this Yom Kippur because they had to take care of the kids?" Are you kidding me? I think this guy needs to go back to Yeshiva and learn a little tanach and the emphasis that is places on the tephilos of the nashim tzidkanios. Sara Imeinu, Rivkah, Miriyam, Chanah, and of course Rachel Imenu, Rachel who we are told is in a constant state of being mivakeh al baneha. How dare you trivialize and minimize your wife wanting to be able to go to shul and have kavanah while davening on Yom Kippur? Women have a unique way of being able to daven far better than most men. I recall my grandmother would sit and say tehillim after she davened in the morning and she felt the pain and joy of the people she was davening for, you could see it on her face. When, sir, was the last time you recited a kapitel tehillim like your grandmother or mother?
I would hope that before this yokle got married he would know his wife’s hashkafic leanings, and if he did not than he has bigger problems than just worrying about his wife wanting to daven on Yom Kippur and have him learn more. Instead of writing off all seminaries perhaps you should look into what the hashkafos of the seminary are before you send your daughter and sister to them. Girls going to Brovenders and MMY will have far different hashkafos than those going to BJJ and B'nos Chavah. You choose to live in the charedi world where the girls are taught from the time they are little that they should marry a "learner" and not an "earner" and now that you married a bas Yisrael who chooses to embrace the values that she was taught you publicly complain that she wants to go to shul on Yom Kippur.
I really hope, sir that your wife does not see this letter because I know that if I ever cracked and publicly wrote a letter like this about my wife I would come home and find my belongings on the lawn. My suggestion to you, sir, is perhaps this Yom Kippur you should stay home and watch the kids and let your wife go to shul, maybe it will teach you some humility!
Dear Editor,
I can hear you already: “What does it matter what a man thinks of seminary?” The answer is harsh but true. It matters a great deal, because we are the ones who have to pick up the pieces. Chas veshalom, none of us are against the lofty ideals espoused and theoretically taught in seminary. I would love to see our sisters and daughters in those theoretical seminaries. The fact is, however, that until seminaries are what some seem to think they are, I will do all I can to keep my daughters out of them.
The reasons are simple:
Men currently spend many years for each year their wives were in seminary deprogramming them, and even that never really undoes the damage. A person’s job is to live their life for Hashem. If Hashem wants a man to spend his life serving him in some other field than klei kodesh, that man certainly does not need his eizer kinegdo crying that he is not spending all his time learning. Nor do we need our wives having no appreciation for the G-dly task of raising a family.
Why am I the first one to tell my wife that the reason she is not obligated to do many of the mitzvos is because her life is intrinsically more holy and she does not need to do all that us men need to do to bring us closer to Hashem?
Do you think we appreciate hearing our wives moan that they didn’t daven well this Yom Kippur because they had to take care of the kids?
I hate to say it, but if that is how you feel, there are other religions that feel that way as well. Raising children (and that does not mean having a “goyta” take them so that you can daven more, or working full time) is as holy a calling as there is and our womenfolk are being robbed of a meaningful life by those who claim to be adding meaning to their lives.
A Husband
This letter is disturbing on so many levels I do not know where to start. My wife attended a very highly regarded seminary for two years and I can thankfully say that neither she nor MOST of her friends needed to be "deprogrammed" when they returned. She gained immeasurable knowledge and it greatly increased her avodas hashem and it gave her a great baseline from where to draw in the future.
This guy complains that "Do you think we appreciate hearing our wives moan that they didn’t daven well this Yom Kippur because they had to take care of the kids?" Are you kidding me? I think this guy needs to go back to Yeshiva and learn a little tanach and the emphasis that is places on the tephilos of the nashim tzidkanios. Sara Imeinu, Rivkah, Miriyam, Chanah, and of course Rachel Imenu, Rachel who we are told is in a constant state of being mivakeh al baneha. How dare you trivialize and minimize your wife wanting to be able to go to shul and have kavanah while davening on Yom Kippur? Women have a unique way of being able to daven far better than most men. I recall my grandmother would sit and say tehillim after she davened in the morning and she felt the pain and joy of the people she was davening for, you could see it on her face. When, sir, was the last time you recited a kapitel tehillim like your grandmother or mother?
I would hope that before this yokle got married he would know his wife’s hashkafic leanings, and if he did not than he has bigger problems than just worrying about his wife wanting to daven on Yom Kippur and have him learn more. Instead of writing off all seminaries perhaps you should look into what the hashkafos of the seminary are before you send your daughter and sister to them. Girls going to Brovenders and MMY will have far different hashkafos than those going to BJJ and B'nos Chavah. You choose to live in the charedi world where the girls are taught from the time they are little that they should marry a "learner" and not an "earner" and now that you married a bas Yisrael who chooses to embrace the values that she was taught you publicly complain that she wants to go to shul on Yom Kippur.
I really hope, sir that your wife does not see this letter because I know that if I ever cracked and publicly wrote a letter like this about my wife I would come home and find my belongings on the lawn. My suggestion to you, sir, is perhaps this Yom Kippur you should stay home and watch the kids and let your wife go to shul, maybe it will teach you some humility!
31 comments:
first i thought you were the "letter writer". but i hear his point. women dont have to daven. and complaining that "i couldnt daven well cuz i had to watch to damn kids" illustrates misplaced values.
while i agree with you, HF, that this guy should have known what he got himself into, i think that there is a certain, issue to be had with some of the seminaries in israel and how they "teach" the girls.
some are good, some are not.
just like some yeshivas for guys.
although for guys i would say, some are good, most are not.
i think his main point was that his wife needs to be happy as a woman with her womanly responsibilities, (se'asani kirtzono) and not pine away over not making zman kriat shema...
thats not to say women shouldnt want to daven or should be denigrated for davening, but the happy medium must be found. stopping to leave your 3 kids screaming on the floor unsupervised so you can daven mincha isnt what god intended, if he did then he would have made you a man...
(shelo asani isha!)
I think the main issue is this ,before people go to Israel to learn for the year have what we wanted to be instilled in them there?
If you leave an opening NO matter where the child goes to seminary or yeshiva a rabbi can fill it in. Unfortunately, they aren't sure of who they are which allows people to fill their minds.
The man you describe here is a perfect example of a cracked system. Whatever happened to people earning and learning, wives could and if they choose , should do the same.
It is a shame that people do not see the realities that are facing us.
If you send a child with an empty mind to Israel for a year, don't be surprised if it comes back full of something you don't agree with.
I myself have seen this transformation in girls. One I knew was a staunch Religious Zionist with ambitions of becoming a Judaic studies professor. She came back and rejected her first three shidduchim because they worked for a living and she wouldn't consider anyone who was "Zionist" or who held a job - too low a madreigah for her.
Another I knew had no ambitions but came back determined that the kollel life was the only life for her.
All this means is that the parents must give their children a strong sense of identity so that when the rebbe or rebbitzen figure in Israel tries to give them a new one, they don't succumb.
As a side note, you know what you get with you combine a kollel guy who spends 30 minutes checking his tzitzis each morning with a kollel wife who's more worried about her kavanah during Shema than attending to her screaming baby?
Screwed up kids, that's what!
omg, speaking as a sem girl, i think the husbands complaints are totally unwarrented, and unfair. if his wife wants to grow, good for her. if she wants to be spiritual, good for her. yes, girls do get 'semed out' but it is just a faze and they revert back on their own, at their own pace. it is not the husbands place to comment on his wifes religious lever anyway.
As I sit here and read all the comments being made- you have completely missed the point (except for Altie). The point is not how the girls come back from seminary, it is their prerogative to want to daven, or learn, or have their husbands learn. The point is that this guy should first of all have known who he was marrying-hashkafos etc. and for him to degrate the fact that his wife wants to daven on Yom Kippur is inappropriate. And to The Law - I do not know of a single girl who cries over missing zman krias shema or lets her children cry in order to daven. The problem is the stigma connected with seminary and the girls returning from there, and if you have a problem with the girls hashkafa-DON'T MARRY HER!
Mrs. HF - just cuz you dont know 'em doesnt mean they arent out there. I've got a couple in my family.
theres a reason the shulcha aruch says "kol hapatur min hadavar veosehu, nikra hedyot".
I suggest you read the rav's story about the "lilly white tablecloth".
lastly, if you really believe that its the womans prerogative to demand or "want" her husband to learn, then it should be just as ok and fine for a husband to do tznius checks on his wife, checking her sheitel, sleeve length, skirts, cellphone records, internet search history, barring her from talking to whomever he wants her not to, etc....
obviously thats not ok. its not healthy. yes you can say, well she should have known what she was getting into and not married him, but sometimes abuse is abuse. and a wifes abusive neglect in the name of religion is still abusive neglect.
My wife, who is a product of Beis Yaakov, Michlalah, and Stern has read the blog and comments and agrees, that its nice for a woman to want to be spiritual, but its selfish for her to do it at the expense of her family.
I wonder how you would feel if she decided she wanted to "grow" by doing 2 hours of cardio a day and was upset that she couldnt work out as much since she had to watch her kids....
me thinks not...
HUH? A beis yaacov seminary is this guy's biggest ally! beis yacov spends all day teaching the students how little THEIR spiritual lives count, compared to serving everything else around them. Kudos to his wife for resisting BY brainwashing... now all she has to resist is brainwashing by him!
All I need to know I learned in SEMINARY
To echo my husbands sentiments, while i can appreciate a quiet moment to reflect and daven without the interrupting child; or relish a wonderful and meaningful yom kippur davening, (which as a chazan's wife, i have yet to hear, since i am a mother and have a child to take care of) i have to wonder what ever happened to a woman feeling a sense of pride and honor with the role in which god bestowed upon us.
The reason we are exempt from specific time bound mitzvot is that our role is primarily to care for and be responsible for the needs of our family. And if that comes at the expense of other things, so be it. Why is that role, second rate?
why does it sound from all the comments that being a woman and not "learning" or "davening" is somehow not good enough? why is raising a family so substandard? a woman's role is different AND equal to that of a man's.
Furthermore, i find these comments insulting. It is as if you are removing value from what it is be jewish frum woman; And are missing the message entirely. every person, man or woman has the responsibility to constantly improve on their avodat hashem. that being said, that avoda, and the means in which to improve upon that avoda, are gender specific. failure to see and understand that, is indicative of one's sad insecurity and is extremely shortsighted.
May god give us all the strength to work on our avoda in a proper manner, befitting each individual.
AINTKILIS -
dont know what beis yaakov you went to, but you should have waited for my wifes post before jumping to conclusions...
Both Mr, and & Mrs law are missing the point of my post. I agree with you that in general the woman's place has traditionally been to tend to family and her children and it should continue to be. However, just as a woman chooses to hire a baby sitter so that she can go out to work, she can have the same person come on yom kippur and watch the children that are too young to go to shul so that she can go and daven. My wife also attended Michlala and we do not see anything wrong with her going to shul on Yom kippur while someone watches our three small children at home.
Additionally I am not removing the value from what it is to be a frum woman, in fact I think that the letter writer is belittling the frum Woman's traditional role of being able to raise a family while still having kavanah while she davens, as did Rachel Chanah and Sara. His comments reflect more someone living in Saudi Arabia than a jewish male who is supposed to look out for his wife's spiritual well being as well as his own.
This guy clearly did not know his wife before they married or he never would have gotten to the point where he felt a need to spew such rubbish in public.
I don't see the correlation between a wife wanting to daven and have her husband learn and a husband doing a tznius check on his wife (too many naomi regan books?) The two are not related, one is nonsense and the other is directly tied to the advancement of spiritual growth.
first of all, who the f is naomi regan, is that ronald regans jewish neice? if not, then i dont care who she is.
secondly, i didnt miss the point of your post, i think that letter writer has a valid point in that, his wife wants to do things at the expense of his family. thats all.
"Why am I the first one to tell my wife that the reason she is not obligated to do many of the mitzvos is because her life is intrinsically more holy and she does not need to do all that us men need to do to bring us closer to Hashem?"
this is very troubling question, not troubling because he is asking it, but because it needs to be asked. That was my point. a woman doesnt need to daven. sara, chana, rachel aside. (and i wouldnt never equate a run of the mill jewish woman with either of the 3.)
I dont think the letter writer is saying he wants his wife barefoot and pregnant and seen but not heard. I think he wants her to be happy in the role carved out for her by god and halacha. its not a lesser role, but a more holy and special one.
My uncle once said woman are more compete and on a higher level genetically than men. just look at the chromosomes. a Y is missing the rest of the lower right leg which would make it an X.
my main point was, a woman doesnt need to daven, shes not commanded to. why? because she has other things she needs to do. any woman who doesnt understand and appreciate that should not longer sa sheasani kirtzono every morning...
BTW, in Judaism, women's traditional role is not to raise a family. According to Chazal, that was the FATHER's role. Women are exempt from all מצוות הבן על האב and even from procreation itself (according to the Bavli). A wealthy woman was even allowed to hire a wetnurse to breastfeed her own child!
This whole "women's spiritual role in the home" hogwash has been introduced into the community as a response to feminism, not as a function of traditional Judaism, and may even have been (unconsciously) adapted from American protestantism.
And while this tack has worked for many women, it remains inadequate for those gifted with depth and intelligence (or cursed, as per the perspective of the letter writer.)
"His wife wants to do things at the expense of the Family????"
What about Mr. Letter Writer doing things at the expense of his wife? האם זה לא בא בחשבון?
"שעשני כרצונו"
You are a hundred percent right. Women who do not consider themselves inferior should most decidedly not recite this bracha, which is to be said by slaves as well as women, "כמי שמצדיק עליו דין רע" according to the Shu"a, (kind of like ברוך דיין אמת). Not exactly a flagship of separate but equal roles, Mrs. Law's eloquent declaration not withstanding.
sara -
think about what the mitzvot av al haben are i dont think they are what we are talking about. but if you are working off of what women are patur from, you are making may argument for me, thanks!
Father was charged with chinuch, teaching a trade, and swimming. I would hardly consider those as the be all and end all of raising a family. i hope you dont either...
Second, careful about quoting bavli unless you want all of it. it doesnt really champion womens cognitive abilities.
i think you are missing my point. I'm not saying a woman should only stay home and raise kids and having a housekeeper or a maid, or the like is a woman shirking her responsibilities, both to her family and to her creator.
If a woman wants to learn torah, or daven 3 times a day, or eat in the succa, etc. (all things she has absolutely zero responsibility to do) thats wonderful. but if it comes at the expense of her family, then its wrong. and its kol hamosif gorea.
again, thats not to say that anytime a woman wants to do something she isnt mechayiv to do its bad. but in cases where she has to choose between the family needs and this extra spiritual experience. i think the choice is clear.
lastly, likening the womans role viz-a-viz the family as a response to the feminist movement and spured by protestants is just a cheap way to discredit the argument and point of view. its revisionist at best. its just as hollow as me saying woman wanting to daven is a product of the femenist movement and is probably adapted from the early american progressive movement, Margaret Sanger and the advent of reform judaism.
lastly, i dont know if it was I who was unclear or if you are using the negative excessively, but i clarify. A woman who is happy and content with her role in judaism should say sheasani kirtzono. that is to say, that a woman is knows she is not commanded to daven, eat in a succa, shake lulav, etc., and is ok with it, and doesnt feel inferior but understands that as a created entity has a different tafkid should be happy to say it.
everyones role is different. we are all unique. and men and women are different. as my wife so eloquently stated, there are gender specific roles in judaism. who's to say which role is more important. and, i am not so brazen as to pretend to know. only god himself knows.
finally this has nothing to do with a woman being smart or "gifted with depth and intelligence" as you put it. (in fact your comment is pretty off putting to thousands of women who find much more reward and meaning in raising children at home, but i digress) Whats the correlation between davening and intelligence? so if a woman decides that she is needed more feed her children on yom kippur so her husband can fulfill his divinely demanded obligation she a dolt? come on, even you cant believe your own argument...
To Honestly Frum,
It seems to me that the letter writer would ask, regarding your grandmother, whether she complained about not having the time to daven at such length when her children were still young and needed her attention? As you are writing about personal recollections about your grandmother, she was clearly at a different stage in life than the one that the letter writer is discussing.
Also, you write about the intrinsic ability of women to daven--however, the fact remains that they do not have the obligation, and that does tell us something about prioritizing.
I do agree with your point about the letter writer having been remiss in not paying more attention to these hashkafic issues before marriage. Calling him a yokel, however (especially misspelled), doesn't improve your argument.
Shalom
Naomi Ragen is a writer. She is a great writer. She writes mostly now regulary for the most right wing political establishment and of course the very pro israel.
she is a superb writer at that. she has published many books both true and fiction novels.
Any well read jew of the 21st century knows who Naomi Ragen is.
Shema Bini Mussar avicha v'al titosh TORAT imecha. Nuff said.
Its a shame that so many young ladies have reverted to taking the lazy way out to justify their lack of interest in learning and davening. previous generations of jewish women held prayer as sacrosanct...not exempt due to chiald rearing. its a 21st century american cop out of lazyiness and immaturity, and a fallout growth of the opposite of seminary flip outs.
cant tell if the last 3 anons are all the same, but I assume so, given the content of the (poor) arguments advanced.
Naomi Ragen is a writer. She is a great writer. She writes mostly now regulary for the most right wing political establishment and of course the very pro israel.
she is a superb writer at that. she has published many books both true and fiction novels.
Any well read jew of the 21st century knows who Naomi Ragen is.
i hope this is a joke. especially the last line. Some woman (not to say it if were a man it would be different) who published some paperback fiction books that sold on supermarket shelves and writes almost exclusively about "the ultra-orthodox" does not qualify as the yardstick with which to measure if a jew is well read in the 21st century (i dont think anyone qualifies as the century is nary 9 years old, its like saying JK Rowling is the most prolific author of the century, but i digress).
So not knowing her is nothing like saying you've never heard of Chaim Potok.
Secondly:
Shema Bini Mussar avicha v'al titosh TORAT imecha. Nuff said.
if you are serious, then you are an idiot. you love learning so much, maybe you should do some.... see what this statement really means...
Lastly,
previous generations of jewish women held prayer as sacrosanct...not exempt due to chiald rearing.
exempt from what, what obligation? there is none you dolt! you think its (again i dont know why you keep saying it but) 21st century american cop-out? why dont you check where the womens tefila group was in the shtetl and get back to me. You are a fool. and equating raising children with lazyiness [sic] and immaturity just speaks volumes about how you have much growing up to do yourself.
next time just be quiet, grown-ups are talking...
Anonymous- you are so rude!You basically said that if a woman chooses to stay home and raise her family that she is taking the easy way out! Unless you are on the madreigah of moshe rabeinu, or an individual whose avodat hashem is near perfection, I'm not sure if you are in the position to make such generalizations. Before I was married and had children I spent the better part of my days learning, davening and delving into torah study that I was not "mechuyav" in doing, but because I am dedicated to improving my relationship with G-d, and my understanding of halacha, and during that time in my life, I had plenty of time to do so in that specific manner. As my circumstances in life have changed with marriage and children, I feel blessed to have a specific role as the woman of the household that yiddishket so particularly outlines for me, and enables me to keep growing spiritually by altered means adjusted to the new position i find myself in! And while my dedication to avodat hashem remains the same, the methods through which growth is acheieved now, is different then when I did not have the responsibility of raising children. This is NOT LAZY, or a cop out. This certainly is not a free pass or excuse, and you implying is so insulting, ignorent, judgemental and rude.
Regarding our grandmothers: At age 60 ע"הmy grandmother learned to read Hebrew, something that had not been available to her in her youth. Can you imagine what it means to learn to read at 60? Nothing would have made her happier than to see her grandaughters studying the Torah that she could not.
1. There is a misunderstanding here by people on both sides of the arguement. Stop thinking in extremes. It seems everyone thinks that one must either idealize homemaking and mothering (true feminine spiritual fulfillment) or trash it completely (laziness). Why can't we acknowledge life as it truly is? That childcare, on the one hand is a beautiful noble rewarding and and essential calling, but on the other hand is also strenous work, involves much tedium and mundanity, with little opportunity for adult- level social and intellectual activity?
2. Mr. Law keeps talking about a woman's spiritual activities taking place "at the expense of her family."
Mr. Law, Why do you make the assumption that only women's spiritual activities have the potential to conflict with "her families needs?"
Why isn't Mr. Letter Writer's wish to spend all his waking hours in shul, considered to be at the expense of his pining wife?
sara -
since we are talking about the letter writer and we can only accept his version of the facts, since thats all that is in front of us, he is implying that his wifes 'spiritual advancement' is coming at the expense of the family. If that were not the case, the discussion would be different.
now to answer your second question. the husbands being at shul to meet his spiritual demands is not the same. since they are obligations. I would agree that if his wife is unable to function without him, or that his family needs him since the wife alone with the children is outnumbered and outmatched, then he should come back home to his family, since familial obligations trump. (see rav schachter's comments on balancing being frum and 'normal', i think HF was there for that Thursday night mussar shmooze).
Lastly, i dont think the letter writer expressed his desire to spend all waking hours at shul. if that was the case, and he was shirking his familial obligation he would incur the same wrath from me. but if we have a situation where X must be done. and either husband can do X, or wife can do X and only husband is obligated to do X. then the choice is clear.
but thank you for steering the conversation back on track.
I believe the issue of "obligation" is a smokescreen for the real issue of who's ruchnius is more important.
-The husband is under no halachic requirement to pray every single Tefillah in shul. Or the entire Tefillah. Especially on Kippur, when one Tefillah can take 4 hours.
Proof: Does he pray every single Tefillah year round in shul without EVER missing? I doubt it. What that means is that he simply doesn't value his wife's tefillos as much as taking the car to the mechanic, or jetlag, or whatever other reasons there are for missing minyan.
2. Even if there was an obligation (which there isn't) there is no reason to assume that it takes precedence over acts of chessed. Quite the opposite, as the Haftarah of the day so clearly states, chessed is far more important. (And if he doesn't know this because he wasn't paying attention to the haftara, then he really has no excuse not to be at home).
4. Does he look for ways to accomodate both of them (and believe me, I;ve seen plenty of couple who do)? No, he (and his supporters) starts bashing his wife and her whole value system. חס ושלום she should want to pray. Shows more than anything how little he values it.
He should have been ashamed to post such a blantantly self centered letter, instead of having the chutzpa to ask us all to jump on his bandwagon.
Sadly this is not just him, this is characteristic of modern day halachic observance- use and misuse of the concept of "halachic obligation" as a reason to ignore common derech eretz.
sara -
1. see shulchan aruch re: tefilla betzibur. also, you assume too much of the facts. as such you "proofs" fall short.
2. see #1. we dont paskin from haftara. the only way he is exempt is if there is an opportunity for another mitzvah occurring that cant be completed by anyone else.
4[sic]. again you assume too much. i dont see him bashing her value system. or saying she should never want to pray. thats actually not anywhere in the letter. he just says her complaining about not being able to "daven well" not daven at all.
i think your anger toward the letter writer is misguided.
as an aside, i dont think u can argue that a man is obligated in tefila 3 times a day. A woman is not. (she may not be obligated at all, but we can assume she is obligated to at least give some thanks at least once a day to the Lord). if you think this fact is debatable or untrue, i will suggest to you what i did to the anon poster. If you love learning so much, maybe you should do some learning of halacha...
Naomi Ragen is a political right wing journalist and major zionist writer. WHo ever said she writes about ultra orthodox? Unltra orthodox and ultra zionist arent exactly the same neighborhood...
Anon, have you read anything by her? Sotah, Jephta's daughter, ect. They are all about the ultra orthodox communities
thanks HF-
i think our anon wants to put naomi regan on the same level as nechama leibowitz.
i applaud ms. regans efforts on behalf of woman and her involvement in the whole, single sex bus fiasco in israel, but lets not get carried away...
Law,
It's not just the letter writer. He's symbolic of the system.
Basically what I am saying is that we craft our idea of "obligations" out of the social roles we have created, and not the other way around.
Now for a separate, but equally important topic:
Regarding ritual obligations (psak) vs. values, yes, the Navi was clearly on the side of values. Are you saying the halacha is not on the side of values? Do you not believe the Navi that he is quoting the words of HaShem himself? Do you really prefer the human made obligations of prayer (the entire nusach of tefillah is a mixture of d'rabanan and minhag)?
If the Navi has nothing to teach you about your behavior, then why do you bother reading him at all?
SM
SM - i prefer , like orthodox jews do, to follow the halachik process. that means we paskin from the shulchan aruch, not the navi. yes the navi can teach us things about behavior and the like, but we dont derive obligations, halchik in nature, from the navi.
if you find that disagreeable, then thats fine, you just find yourself outside the boundaries of the orthodox halachik process and we will not see eye to eye. not that there is anything wrong with that. we can just agree to disagree.
see this link about half way through the Q&A http://www.ravaviner.com/2009/06/shut-sms-25.html
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